Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby Southpaw » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 am

DoctorCookie wrote:The bot argument is valid, the griefing argument is also valid. I dont resent anyone's advantage that they create for themselves. However, once that advantage is used to attempt to exterminate the more casual population from the game it nullifies any pvp based griefing argumants that jorb/loftar have expressed as their core beliefs. The population always drops into the hundreds once the factions have settled down and made their alliances. In past worlds, w10 for sure, we had a community fair and events that kept people around and the last part of the world was a good time for a new player to join and learn the game. Now if the creators mean for the game just to be played at a faction level, then put that out there. I am not sure how to address this as a two man team, I am just want the game to thrive.

i still dont really think this is the correct take, factions became your bogeyman because factions are the only things that survive the mid-late game without getting bored and quitting by month 3. the problem isn't that someone made a bot that helps them grind 5k stats, the problem is that they're the only other kid in the sandbox with you.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby MagicManICT » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:43 am

Southpaw wrote:factions became your bogeyman because factions are the only things that survive the mid-late game without getting bored and quitting by month 3.

Even the faction players start getting bored and quit by month three. Note: this isn't a Haven problem, but an MMO problem. Haven just has a particular set of skills as excuses for quitting.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby Southpaw » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:36 am

MagicManICT wrote:
Southpaw wrote:factions became your bogeyman because factions are the only things that survive the mid-late game without getting bored and quitting by month 3.

Even the faction players start getting bored and quit by month three. Note: this isn't a Haven problem, but an MMO problem. Haven just has a particular set of skills as excuses for quitting.

as someone who has done factional gameplay for a pretty good run, the average reason for faction bois to quit by month 3 is because of shitty pvp, crashes, or not enough nabs to gank

usually not even vaguely the same thing that makes a midling player quit

i think you're chugging kool-aid if you're going to pretend this isn't a haven exacerbated issue, because the issue of MMO's bleeding players is usually directly tied to content loss
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby Massa » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:06 pm

Southpaw wrote:
MagicManICT wrote:
Southpaw wrote:factions became your bogeyman because factions are the only things that survive the mid-late game without getting bored and quitting by month 3.

Even the faction players start getting bored and quit by month three. Note: this isn't a Haven problem, but an MMO problem. Haven just has a particular set of skills as excuses for quitting.

as someone who has done factional gameplay for a pretty good run, the average reason for faction bois to quit by month 3 is because of shitty pvp, crashes, or not enough nabs to gank

usually not even vaguely the same thing that makes a midling player quit

i think you're chugging kool-aid if you're going to pretend this isn't a haven exacerbated issue, because the issue of MMO's bleeding players is usually directly tied to content loss

It's an issue of access and time management I think. Haven is too taxing for even scrubs to play. It takes too much time, demands too much and too many tasks add up to the game costing 8 hours a day just to keep on.

The game sometimes seems deliberately set up to be inaccessible. There's a huge difference between unforgiving/hardcore and inaccessible/shitty and a good portion of haven is the latter. Some shit is so awful that there's truly just no reason to bother at all with it without automation, some fundamental systems fight you, some things take so long they're not worth doing. Most people burnout way before they're anywhere meaningful because it takes so long and so much effort to just get minimum functionality. Even by then, that functionality costs a FUCKTON in upkeep. The game absolutely reeks and stinks it's so full of 4, 8, 54, 72, 24 hour timers at every step of the way.

People don't want to have a months long commitment that costs them 8 hours a day every day that, if they miss a single beat, can cost them everything they've worked for. Jorb and Lorb should, ideally, move towards the modern era because their playerbase is no longer 90% unemployed eastern european teenagers. Now they have jobs and lives. Quite frankly, much of Haven's imposed set of challenges is disrespectful to the human condition.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby jorb » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:28 pm

Designing an MMO has a particular set of challenges. Effectively we're building a 24/7 theme park. For that to be possible, there needs to be stuff to do at all times. Designing content which is functionally inexhaustible -- on a two man team -- requires, perhaps, (?) some reliance on repetition, "tedium", and generated content. Most of the timed ingame processes are, however, simply inspired by a vague sense of realism, rather than any calculated desire to make them "tedious". Making leather does take some time, for example.

The idea of scythes having an AoE is nice. Happy to take suggestions for other fixes in that vein.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby DDDsDD999 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:44 pm

Timers aren't the issue, the amount of effort/chores to reach a slightly competent level is too high, leading to burn out/forced botting. And stat grind is the only thing that matters after a few months since industry caps out so industry cucks get bored and quit.

Remove pepper, truffles, whales because they're impossible for humans to do at a useful scale without bots. But since you can't remove content for some reason, just inflate pepper and truffles so the same amount can be applied 100x more. Though I'm still gonna bot that shit because it's bad.

Rework drinks so we aren't slowly drinking by the barrel full: make each sip increase a duration of time rather than be a single food item. It's like 50 pear trees for a barrel of perry, and when we had 3 people raising stats they'd go through that in a day. That's not even covering all of the other drinks.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby Nightdawg » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:26 pm

jorb wrote:Most of the timed ingame processes are, however, simply inspired by a vague sense of realism, rather than any calculated desire to make them "tedious". Making leather does take some time, for example.


On the other hand, stuff like silkmaking exists, and it is so obnoxiously obscene. The fact that A VIDEO GAME, DECIDES WHEN, YOU, THE PLAYER, should play it, is a very stupid mechanic itself. Mind you, silkmaking is not an in game event like meteors, granted mostly all games have some sort of consistency when it comes to such events (PVP events in games), or they allow the players to decide when everyone should make time for big events (such as big/hard PVE content in games).

I won't mention other stuff, as I consider silkfarming to be the perfect example, but you know your own mechanics I reckon, you just don't know how painfully annoying stuff is. If you played the game beyond the bronze sword stage you'd recognize how mandatory bots are to even try to enjoy the game.

I still dream that one day either you or loftar will go undercover in a competent village and get spanked by someone in PVP to see how stuff really goes.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby SnuggleSnail » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:05 pm

DDDsDD999 wrote:
Timers aren't the issue, the amount of effort/chores to reach a slightly competent level is too high, leading to burn out/forced botting. And stat grind is the only thing that matters after a few months since industry caps out so industry cucks get bored and quit.

Remove pepper, truffles, whales because they're impossible for humans to do at a useful scale without bots. But since you can't remove content for some reason, just inflate pepper and truffles so the same amount can be applied 100x more. Though I'm still gonna bot that shit because it's bad.

Rework drinks so we aren't slowly drinking by the barrel full: make each sip increase a duration of time rather than be a single food item. It's like 50 pear trees for a barrel of perry, and when we had 3 people raising stats they'd go through that in a day. That's not even covering all of the other drinks.


I wholeheartedly agree with all of this, except I think removing whales would cause other problems even if it's good overall. Whale foods effectively outclass almost everything else to the extent that they may as well not exist, which lowers the total number of foods good enough to pay attention to. If whales are removed the quantity of different foods one would be encouraged to eat would drastically increase.

While that would be more difficult to mostly automate as is done with whales, it will drastically increase the amount of time one can put into raising a character without heavy diminishing returns kicking in. The satiation system is good enough IMO(could be better), but it completely sucks dick and fails whenever you add too many good varieties of food for it to do its job.

Likewise, truffles are awful in that they're something only bots would ever realistically produce enough of - but they do have one really nice side effect of practically being free will. Because there is absolutely zero thought/effort put into balancing food or having intended use cases they're really the only good way to get it. Will is a requirement for travel (has no reason to exist should be csm), and if truffles were ever made not retarded some work should go elsewhere to either add an intended source of will for high level players or just be added as a tertiary stat to nearly everything. Same for perc, kinda.

It feels like a lot of the problems discussed come from food not being designed with intended uses or player behavior in mind, honestly.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby Massa » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:55 pm

jorb wrote:Designing an MMO has a particular set of challenges. Effectively we're building a 24/7 theme park. For that to be possible, there needs to be stuff to do at all times. Designing content which is functionally inexhaustible -- on a two man team -- requires, perhaps, (?) some reliance on repetition, "tedium", and generated content. Most of the timed ingame processes are, however, simply inspired by a vague sense of realism, rather than any calculated desire to make them "tedious". Making leather does take some time, for example.

The idea of scythes having an AoE is nice. Happy to take suggestions for other fixes in that vein.

Speeding up farming from a 4 hour task to a 30 minute one for the same yield or make it a weekly task instead of a daily one, reworking trelises/the automation for them, reworking the energy system that punishes the player for engaging with the game (allow us to get energy without FEPs or damage to our satiety, basically, just for doing manual labor), removing any and all travel restrictions because the original impetus for those are now gone, would be several good starts that aren't too taxing and would open a lot of the game up. Removing punitive/maintenance mechanics (saplings dying on tables is one simple example) is another thing that would be really just dandy. Just a small handful of ideas.

He's right, timers aren't a problem on their own. They do provide pace for the game, but when they punish you like above/overwhelm a one man operation (steel and silk, which I know are supposed to be a 'big deal' as far as gameplay progress goes) it just can get really shitty really fast even as village/group of a few people. A lot of these are sprucecap oriented complaints mind you, which is where the discussion should lie.

When the game forces you to space out an enormous chunk of multiple real days of your own time at consistent intervals, the room for actual human life really starts to get awkward. And it's needless. There's no real reason for a lot of it. Silk could be made just as sincere of an endeavor without the time windows to fuck you over, just a reworking of the processes, steel, tree saplings, seed windows for certain crops, etc. can maintain the level of investment without the awkward and demanding nature of it.
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Re: The only world reset/wipe requests/discussion topic

Postby iamahh » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:18 pm

the thing with sandbox is you set your own size, unless you want to be competitive, then it's a crazy rat's race to hell, which is already a kinda "balancing" utopia

best case scenario IMO is to lean mechanics to incentivize constructive behaviour more than destructive behaviour, so there would be more new players, casual players, and a world more active with markets, larping, etc
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