Space Colonization Thread

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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby MagicManICT » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:02 am

iamahh wrote:But it is what it is, cause we need that new toy made of plastic, oil, thousands of man hours, minerals, and whatever gets in the way gets rekt.

While I agree with your sentiment, I'm going to assume you're not posting this with an 8088 processor.... or even a Pentium 4. ;)

Jalpha wrote:I think this is one of the biggest arguments for why we should be leaving Earth. We have poisoned our environment and now we are poisoning ourselves. Nature doesn't care. Nature will survive. In a hundred thousand years new species will arise to dominate the toxic environment which we can no longer survive.

We've been poisoning ourselves since the end of the tool age. it just didn't really move the needle until we figured out how to make steel.

Jalpha wrote:Imagine if we do survive long enough to encounter another sentient species in the galaxy. Imagine if they ask us about our home planet. Imagine how they would regard us if we had to explain that we turned our home planet into a toxic wasteland. If I were them I wouldn't want us in the neighbourhood.

Anyone more advanced than us will either have done the same thing in their history to become a spacefaring society, or they'll be actively doing it with every planet they colonize. Look at the societies that advanced in science over the centuries. They have all been powermongers looking for something to give an advantage, and scientific progress was almost always a major factor in who survived and who didn't.
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby Fostik » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:31 am

Jalpha wrote:Imagine if we do survive long enough to encounter another sentient species in the galaxy. Imagine if they ask us about our home planet. Imagine how they would regard us if we had to explain that we turned our home planet into a toxic wasteland. If I were them I wouldn't want us in the neighbourhood.


Is that 21th century new religion, to blame humanity for "ruining own planet" and other shithead things?
Please, stop base your ideology on media culture.
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby Jalpha » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:53 am

mvgulik wrote:
Jalpha wrote:I think this is one of the biggest arguments for why we should be leaving Earth.

No. its the biggest argument for growing up and stopping with generating mindless consuming sheep's.

Sure most people are mindless sheep. Even those who see themselves as wolves are merely cannibalistic sheep. The issue is that most people want to be sheep. If they did not want to be sheep they would stop being sheep and become something else. Who are you to tell them what to do and how to behave?
mvgulik wrote:
Jalpha wrote:Nature will survive.

No. Earth will survive.
Nature needs a biosphere that's not set up to go the way of Venus. (and Earth would surpass Venus in that respect big time)

This is the eventual fate of the Earth without our interference anyway. Every bird must leave the nest and learn to fly.
mvgulik wrote:
Jalpha wrote:Leave the oceans to science.

lol.
Tell that to the small group that's responsible for the majority of the problems. Or the politician for that matter that keep listening and acting on there complaints when things are not going there way.

On this we agree somewhat. However the individuals you refer to are locked in battles over money and power upon which the fate of their family line is decided. Try getting anyone to agree on anything. Let alone people who are so full of their own self importance they are happy to destroy everything for the sake of their own egos.
Fostik wrote:
Jalpha wrote:Imagine if we do survive long enough to encounter another sentient species in the galaxy. Imagine if they ask us about our home planet. Imagine how they would regard us if we had to explain that we turned our home planet into a toxic wasteland. If I were them I wouldn't want us in the neighbourhood.

Is that 21th century new religion, to blame humanity for "ruining own planet" and other shithead things?
Please, stop base your ideology on media culture.

I think it is now common knowledge that we are largely responsible for the deteriorating state of our home planet. Are you from the manifest destiny generation who believes that balance is a fallacy and we can just do whatever we like without consequences?
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby Enjoyment_2 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:12 am

Jalpha wrote:This is the eventual fate of the Earth without our interference anyway. Every bird must leave the nest and learn to fly.

Image
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby TommyJo » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:39 pm

Jalpha wrote:Off the cuff:

If you cut me I bleed red. Gold coins do not fall out. What I mean by that is I do not really like capitalism, and an ideal government would be far superior to corporations. However the reality is that an ideal government does not exist and corporations hold much of the real power now.

This aside what private companies have to offer is stability and efficiency. Current governments are too dynamic to sustain the long term vision and action necessary to bridge our migration beyond earth orbit. Parties and leaders change and so does national policy as a result. Companies have much more capacity for long term stability of vision and action. Additionally private companies are motivated by financial profit. There is profit to be made beyond earth orbit. It will take some government support to build up to the point where that profit is accessible. However once that support is able to be withdrawn private companies will be forced to strive for economic efficiency. This philosophy stands in opposition to government funded entities like NASA, which are motivated by the lobbying of their employees. This results in a large proportion of (arguably) squandered resources.

The privatisation of space will be messy. In a lot of ways it will be very messy. It would be better if there was a government to take up the needed role to push us beyond earth orbit. However the reality is that any such government will most probably arise as a result of the privatisation of space, and it will most probably emerge beyond earth orbit.

It is the first steps which are the most difficult.

I will try to answer your other questions in a bit.



This is an adult and well-grounded point of view.
I have to say that it is also, most likely, true at this stage of human development. But, as for me, do not forget that a person is at the helm of any corporation. And not all of these people can be rational enough to look only at profits. Among them, many ideological people are haunted by the very idea of ​​conquering space. Some companies may have even been created in the first place, not for profit as such, but as a resource to achieve the goals of their ambitious leaders. And in this case, we will have a slightly different picture.

Namely: the use of super-profits of large corporations to ensure space exploration in one way or another.
Also, I get the impression that recent events in the world are only pushing humanity to create more and more space companies. At the moment they can be small commercial projects like https://www.skyrora.com/blog/uk-space-news.
But we do not know the global goal of their creators. Perhaps they want to enslave the entire galaxy)
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby mvgulik » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:32 pm

Jalpha wrote:The issue is that most people want to be sheep. If they did not want to be sheep they would stop being sheep and become something else.

That sound suspiciously like a lazy 'other side of the medal' argument.
Kinda like the argument rich and successful individuals use to classify the poor and/or less successful as just being lazy (the other side of the 'the opportunities are there for the taking', or something similar to that effect, euphemism).
Arguments like that in essence completely bypasses and ignores practical and social related hurdles and issue. And generally flows from a view of the world like 'If I can do it, other can do it to. And if they don't. Screw them, as its there own fault' (which is of course a very tempting point of view, as it mentally relieves one of any and all (shared/common) responsibilities.)

Anyway. Should we try to go to Mars. Now is definitely not the time.
Would it save mankind. No either. If we can't manage Earth (and anything else that matters) in a responsible and sustainable manner, will just make the same mistakes over there ... eventually.

[speling]
Last edited by mvgulik on Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby MagicManICT » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 pm

My (humorous) opinion: Elon Musk just got into space exploration and rocketry so he could put something he built (commissioned) into orbit. Jeff Bezos just wants to get into space exploration so he can have a monopoly on retail sales on the Moon and Mars.

afterthought: And the thing is... if it gets more exploration done, and advances science and civilization, is there anything wrong with that?
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby mvgulik » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:14 am

Advances in science is just that. More knowledge to be used. How its used is a social matter.
That's not to say that all scientific advances have the same potential to do more harm than good.

Civilization advances are a different beast. As it can be split up in different separate aspects where it can advance in.
The technological level seems always the preferred measuring stick compared to other civilization aspects. (which should not be a real surprise)
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby TommyJo » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:12 am

MagicManICT wrote:My (humorous) opinion: Elon Musk just got into space exploration and rocketry so he could put something he built (commissioned) into orbit. Jeff Bezos just wants to get into space exploration so he can have a monopoly on retail sales on the Moon and Mars.

afterthought: And the thing is... if it gets more exploration done, and advances science and civilization, is there anything wrong with that?


It seems to me that you are not so far from the truth to call it a joke. Now is such a time that it is extremely rare for those projects that are not designed for profit in the future. It is not for nothing that more and more new companies appear that gives the opportunity to launch rockets, spaceships, large and small satellites, and much more. Capitalism, however.
After some time, information about what benefits each space company was originally laid down will become available. And we will discuss them not by advertising, but by profitability)
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Re: Space Colonization Thread

Postby dafels » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:52 pm

we live in a society
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