Are devs happy/okay/satisfied with the player numbers?

[DafyddapDafydd]

Biggest issues I've encountered over the past 10 years (and getting worse in the past 3-4) are as follows:

1. The game is grindy asf.
2. The default client really sucks.
3. The combat system is obtuse as hell and I'll never be competitive unless I treat the game as a second job (probably not even then).
4. Trading has gotten much harder over the years for casual players. I remember the days when you could buy decent stuff with some blueberries and flotsam, and I am not paying real-life money just for gear in a game I'll quit in a few months anyway.
5. The FEPs on foods have gotten so complex over the years that I can't keep up with what combinations are "optimal", or with what ingredients will give what results.


As far as solutions go, I don't really know what to do about 1 and 4, but there are a few long-term ones for 2, 3, and 5 that should be implemented.


2. The devs should add more QOL features to the default client, like different camera modes and the grid view. I stopped playing regularly because it was too much of a pain to do ordinary tasks once Amber stopped being updated.

3. My preference would be for the devs to make pvp into a rock-paper-scissors type game, where there is a stat cap on combat skills and players can win by taking advantage of their enemies' weaknesses.

Ranged players should counter two-handed players, one-handed w/shield counter ranged, and two-handed counters players with shields, or something similar. I think that this would make it so that the most important things in combat aren't stats, but gear quality and strategy, since any player can potentially be beaten by someone (or some group) who has brought the right gear to a fight. This is a lot more intuitive than Haven's system, and I think it would also give combat a lower barrier for entry since you wouldn't have to grind stats endlessly to stay competitive.

5. Make it so that FEPs in a food are more predictable. As it is right now, depending on what kind of wood I use to smoke something and what ingredients/seasonings I use, there are thousands of combinations. For instance, red onions seem to give INT when put into pirozkis, but give STR for steak and tubers (and even this is not so simple, because pirozkis don't give INT if you make them with both red onions and bay boletes). Why? It's so damn complicated to try and min-max recipes when each ingredient gives a different, completely arbitrary bonus depending on what food I use it in. Ingredients should always give the exact type of FEP that the base item gives, e.g. Bay Boletes give DEX and CHA if eaten raw, so when added to a food, they should only give +1 or +2 DEX and CHA and never anything else.

TL;DR: The game has become an even bigger headache than it was in Legacy and needs an overhaul, especially in client QoL, combat, and FEP bonuses.

[shubla]

Maybe permanent character progression should be removed and replaced with just momentarily, expiring buffs that you would get from clothes, food, curiosities.

[jordancoles]

If the combat system was genuinely fun in itself, you would likely engage in it just because you enjoyed it (spars, practice). I think that in Hafen, combat is just a means to an end rather than an enjoyable experience.

In Legacy we used to spar really often, and I have logged on in recent years just for spars with some friends. Movement hits in legacy helped a lot to level the playing-field between characters despite large stat differences. I am not sure how well movement combat would transfer to a new 3D world with ridges/speed boosts, etc though.

I can't really speak for the big factions in the recent worlds, but I know that casual 1v1s with your friends/village mates just aren't really a thing, and they are never very satisfying.
Usually one or two villagers end up greatly out-statting their village-mates early on and then there is little point in even sparring each other 1v1, imo. Majorly out-statted characters may be able to practice their movement/escaping skills with their villagemates, but it is such an uphill battle when you're outstatted/outgeared that most people cba with it all lol

In my experience across all of Hafen villagers will spar a few times, realize that they stand no chance after getting dusted in 3-4 hits and then they never want to spar again

I don't feel like there is much genuine competition between combat-oriented players right now.
You either stomp on the little guys or get stomped by a big guy. And that's it.

In this combat system, a lot of the final outcome of the fight is determined before the fight even begins, since combat is a stat-check before anything else. Feelsbad


A perfect combat system isn't easy to create by any means. I think that I like idea of playing 'roles' like sword & board, Cleaver, Archer, etc. I'm hesitant about adding combat moves that can heal other players/buff their STR/AGI, etc though.

Removing permadeath and combat stats could be possible, if the combat system/full loot was meant to be the main focus (for the fun of it).

[SnuggleSnail]

A couple days ago I 1v1 downed a char with 3k str on a char with 700 stats in similar gear

Also, it's kinda silly to me that nobody is rly mentioning the hard requirement for a programmer in your village to spend hundreds of hours to make a decent client as a prerequisite for being relevant. I would rather give up my stats/character development bots than my combat features.

[Pommfritz]

As someone with about 3k stats who got downed by a char with 700 stats I can confirm that pvp is indeed more about skill than you guys think xD

but it was fucking close god damn xD

[jordancoles]

A couple days ago I 1v1 downed a char with 3k str on a char with 700 stats in similar gear

Also, it's kinda silly to me that nobody is rly mentioning the hard requirement for a programmer in your village to spend hundreds of hours to make a decent client as a prerequisite for being relevant. I would rather give up my stats/character development bots than my combat features.

And what was your CON/AGI/general combat experience vs theirs?

Post spar vids

[WowGain]

lol

+1

and yeah post spar vids, the only discussion you see about combat now is just people sperging at each other on discord, and thats not really anything where someone could gleam anything beyond it being a dick swinging contest

[SnuggleSnail]

And what was your CON/AGI/general combat experience vs theirs?

Full agi advantage, not sure of con 'cause I did like 700 chip into max cleave and they're for sure better than you vs. me who's mediocre at best

lol my offer stands to mrage fight you on a character with half ur stats. You can post a video of it if you want. Would be PRETTY INDITING evidence against your suggestion that only stats matter if u refuse

[Fostik]

Oh shiet I've missed the entire thread.

Well the main thing I wanted to mention is that devs shouldn't listen people who whining about things like quality spiraling, difficulty of stat gain and so on. For me it seems like people are trying to highlight their own problem using player population problem just as cover for it.
You will never be satisfied by the game if you get what you want faster and easier, it will only make you leave faster.

The main question here is not "why people leaving", but "what is main attraction of the game". And here I can say that most enjoying things for average player is:
1. Building/planning
2. Player interactions
3. Development (character and technologies)

People like to build their bases, they like to find other players and trade/fight them, they like to see high end achievements and proceed to them by developing character stats/credos/base/technologies.
Once world is pretty old there is no new interactions between players, your base is finished, and all the achievements are taken, and there is no new collisions with other players (literally you know where bad and good guys are, what to avoid and where you can safely forage/hunt), there is nothing to do anymore, so people leaving.

I remember world 8 and 9 when you were able to try everything that game has in 2-4 weeks, there were no endgame mechanics at all. While right now game can easily take decent online for even 3 months from restart, which is good.
So I'd say proper way to save player population for longer time is to make mechanics and character development steeper, but this is not a silver bullet, you need to make resets anyway (and also need to consider to make it more often tbh).

[wolf1000wolf]

I really want to highlight the post someone (agrik?) made way earlier about how the "current playerbase" != "target audience".

From reading the About page for HnH, the game is meant to be about "an interactive, affectable and mutable game world" with a focus on survival, crafting, base building and eventually society building.

Here's a hot take. If you took out the current PvP and siege systems, you'd still have the core basis of HnH. In fact, you'd have the most interesting and fun part. Increase the survival factor with harder and harder uncheese-able mobs in different biomes/cave levels and boom -> you have your basis of cooperation/society and gameplay goals.

Sure, you'd probably lose a lot of the old loud vets who are into sandbox pvp ganking, but I'd bet you'd gain a lot more new and longterm players.

Given HnH's feature set, there are a lot more potential players who just want to craft, build, trade and explore.... vs kick over someone else's sandcastle.