Are devs happy/okay/satisfied with the player numbers?

[Jalpha]

Every mmo manages its economy artificially. EVE does it with market fees, NPC "quests" and NPC market trades. WoW does it by managing NPC vendor prices and repair prices for armour and weapons damaged by wipes and combat in general. Patches (expansions) come with their own recalibration of the economy.

P2W is an opt in system and if the game has migrated to a P2W system then a lack of player numbers is a marketing issue. I've always said this is a responsibility of the players to manage. The Devs have been trying but quite obviously they are not particularly effective at it.

I like the idea of village totem trading returning. Nice discussion honestly.

I don't know what else to add except to agree that there seems to be a disconnect between the target audience, the current playerbase and the marketing of the game.

I think the community has the most power here.

[telum12]

Idk if you guys know this, but EVE literally has token-equivalences. I remember their introduction, it was no problem. The main difference between most games with functioning economies and H&H is the existence of actual markets. Being able to go to Jita and buy/sell shit in EVE is easy. What do you do right now in H&H? There's no real markets, and if there were it'd be a legit difficult task to get a stall there. Alternatively, you can try spamming discords. Trading is so difficult in this game. The problem isn't supply and demand, it's volume. Virtually all trade volume exists on stands run by factions. That is toxic for economies.

[WitchKiller]

I think the current user numbers are a pretty damning indictment of our development and/or management, or perhaps of the game itself, tbqh, but -- while I can certainly speculate -- I don't know with any perfect certainty what the big problem(tm) is. I am concerned that recurring resets is an addiction that we're feeding which prevents any longer term commitments to the game.

Continued development is the best I've got.

You know the problems, what you're having an issue with is solving them in a timely manner. I lurk the forums pretty consistently to keep up to date on changes, but it's only ever breadcrumbs of changes towards havens biggest hurdles.

1. Botting necessary- bad
2. Custom client necessary- bad
3. Time investment compared to consequences of not autistically knowing every obscure obtuse mechanic, you guessed it- bad
4. Cheesing any remotely hard encounter in PvE, then botting it for cheese^2 and essentially being given free quality progression skips early and materials- bad
5. Can't win at haven without doing all of the above

But don't get it twisted. This is more like bare minimum to get people in the door. Right now people won't even give this game a chance the moment they understand what its actually about. I think the only reason this thread isn't 5 pages of just these 4 things repeated over and over is everyone here is basically a battered wife years of asking for these things they've given up. They've accepted it's not happening, it's never going to happen in their mind. Maybe if they beg for a scrap like red handed it gets a changed to appease them. And it does, and it did.

So I'm just gonna put it here once again. Everything else is irrelevant under the shadow cast by just these 4 problems. 10 people approach me asking "so whats up with haven?", 9 of them instantly leave the moment they hear anything about botting, 100s of hours of repetitive tasks, progression totally arbitrary and cheesed, safewalling in a pvp setting etc. 1 person tries the game and quits the moment the reality of botting and the bullshit begins.

There's absolutely nothing else to say or ponder with regards to this game until serious effort and dev time get put into fixing the elephant in the room type problems. This isn't a haven bad post, it's so close to being worthwhile for most people to put their time into but these problems are so absurd it shoots itself in the foot immediately.

[Pommfritz]

It's also not really possible to share any videos or screenshots with the public in hnh as soon as something links back to where your base is you are making yourself a target for griefing because litterally everything can be destroyed in hnh. It's cool on one side but doesn't really help word of mouth advertisement which you prefer for good reasons.

[shubla]

Every mmo manages its economy artificially.

I mean yea but EVE has taken it into another level, already in 2007 they hired a real economist for sole purpose of overseeing the games economy

[Fierce_Deity]

At some point I think some consideration should be put in to selling copies of the game like minecraft did and just let people host their own worlds and mod the game. Yes, mods would probably quickly outpace the base game...but that's okay. I'd love to play this game on a private server with a group of like 10 friends and we just slowly grind our way through goals and build a city. I can picture mods adding npc's we would have to take care of or encourage to settle our land and protect them from invasions. I can see dragons on mountains because fuckit why not, and a thousand other things on top of it.

A lot of thought would need to be put into that...but I don't think its a bad route to take. You could even have a license agreement or clause that all mods developed for the game are your property(if thats legal, I have no clue), and incorporate ideas you like into the base game. Minecraft has a huge following for the base game, but it also has incredible mods and a large crowd that exclusively enjoys playing with them.

[Phaen]

The people comparing Haven to EVE and WoW are missing a big thing. Neither of those games have regular wipes in which every game item is destroyed except the tokens.

Haven combines world resets and tokens, where the only thing that survives the wipe are tokens and hats. As more merchants start to believe a reset is imminent, tokens become the only thing worth accepting as payment. They also become the only thing not worth spending. This grinds everything to a halt more so than any kind of travel issues.

[shubla]

Neither of those games have regular wipes in which every game item is destroyed except the tokens.

Didn't I mention this?
Yea they should just be destroyed or not be able to trade them.

[Procne]

The people comparing Haven to EVE and WoW are missing a big thing. Neither of those games have regular wipes in which every game item is destroyed except the tokens.

Haven combines world resets and tokens, where the only thing that survives the wipe are tokens and hats. As more merchants start to believe a reset is imminent, tokens become the only thing worth accepting as payment. They also become the only thing not worth spending. This grinds everything to a halt more so than any kind of travel issues.

And WoW does have some sort of reset. Each new patch renders the gear from previous one worthless. Each new expansion makes gear and materials from previous one worthless. With gold or rare stuff remaining the only things of value. The gold that you can get from RMT. The only thing that Haven is missing here is some form of universal currency intermediate between tokens and items.

But it doesn't really matter. If you currently removed the tokens then most traders would simply stop trading because, as you said yourself, there is nothing else worth accepting as a payment.

[shubla]

But it doesn't really matter. If you currently removed the tokens then most traders would simply stop trading because, as you said yourself, there is nothing else worth accepting as a payment.

Tokens should still be removed because you never know. Devs can also think on what they coudla dd that would work as new, better currency or how to encourage trade in general.