Project: "New Player Guide"

Ask, answer and discuss any and all topics about the hows, whys, wheres and whens of playing Haven & Hearth.

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby telum12 » Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:28 pm

vatas wrote:
telum12 wrote:
vatas wrote:This seems to be a decent combat tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVRI_4F_Lnk


That's a pretty bad combat tutorial...

If full list of stuff that is wrong with it would be too long, can you list top three reasons? Have been thinking of making HnH tutorial videos myself but existence of this guy's videos made me feel they're unnecessary.

My guess for the number one reason is simply the length; I may be completely wrong, but I was thinking that I could make same "basic combat" tutorial that would be only 5 minutes in length.


iirc there was some wrong info and it doesn't give you much useful info beyond the existence of openings etc., which I suppose is fine. One particularly important piece of information is that opening damage calc is squared, so e.g. a opening of 30 results in 9% of your damage, not 30% of your damage.

I know there is someone writing a proper guide for combat/pvp so I guess just wait for that
MagicManICT wrote:To me, being called a pedo is exactly like being called gay.

Jalpha wrote:She must have been in heat bro. She was literally fanging for it. Literally posting repeatedly in chat, in all caps "DO IT! POST YOUR DICK! THERE'S NO WAY IT'S 7 INCHES!"

How could any hot-blooded male deny such a request under the circumstances.
User avatar
telum12
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby Flameturtle » Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:36 pm

Thought I'd jump on here since I saw it whilst looking for something else in how do i.

Sevenless wrote:
axus wrote:Cole's guide was very useful. The problem with CivCraft and Hafen is it's always more fun to play in your free time than to create documentation.


I love writing guides. But it's not a job, and with haven's frequent updates that revise base mechanics I need to be constantly re-reading/updating/correcting. I play about 25-30% of a world's life at most, so the mistakes build up quickly.

My first guide lasted 5 years while being mostly up to date. My second guide got out dated in a little over a year. Many core mechanics were changed, or added. Which is great for the game! But seeing 200-300 hours of volunteer time last the community only a year dampens my enthusiasm as a guide writer. Especially the nagging fear I might be missing something important and getting people killed.



I did find that when I was playing I was playing a lot more than I was keeping my combat guide up to date and then when I lost interest each world I'd only rarely come back to look for the announcement of the next one. I go back to it every time once I'm behind a palisade each world and there's less to do. I never got around to updating the armour changes or fully fleshing out the animal stats/strategies though.


telum12 wrote:I know there is someone writing a proper guide for combat/pvp so I guess just wait for that


There have been multiple attempts at a good combat guide but DDDs's recent one is worth a look it goes into a lot of details about client setup etc that I just didnt make time for.

https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=72160


@Snuggle

Given that the whale spawning is going to be changed has this shifted your priorities much here? And how are you killing them so early? Just throwaway alts with spears and qb/full circle? I've never even seen a whale much less fought one so I'm wondering if theres some trick to it or if you're just relying on numbers in different snekkja's to kite it as much as possible
Flamturtle's Haven & Hearth 2.0 Combat Guide! http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40466 - Remade for its 5th Anniversary!
PM to Contact.
User avatar
Flameturtle
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby Sevenless » Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:18 pm

Flameturtle wrote:I did find that when I was playing I was playing a lot more than I was keeping my combat guide up to date and then when I lost interest each world I'd only rarely come back to look for the announcement of the next one. I go back to it every time once I'm behind a palisade each world and there's less to do. I never got around to updating the armour changes or fully fleshing out the animal stats/strategies though.


I've gotten more active in village development and alchemy testing. It keeps me busy.
Lucky: haven is so quirky
Lucky: can be so ugly, can be so heartwarming
Sevenless: it is life

A brief exposé on casting rod fishing
Explanation of the logic behind the cooking system
User avatar
Sevenless
 
Posts: 6827
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:55 am
Location: Canada

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby telum12 » Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:35 pm

Flameturtle wrote:
There have been multiple attempts at a good combat guide but DDDs's recent one is worth a look it goes into a lot of details about client setup etc that I just didnt make time for.

https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=72160


That's the one I was talking about.

Flameturtle wrote:@Snuggle

Given that the whale spawning is going to be changed has this shifted your priorities much here? And how are you killing them so early? Just throwaway alts with spears and qb/full circle? I've never even seen a whale much less fought one so I'm wondering if theres some trick to it or if you're just relying on numbers in different snekkja's to kite it as much as possible


Whales bash boats. You can't fight them in boats, especially since snekk speed is based off of q which is low early. Like very other animal in this game, you cheese them.
MagicManICT wrote:To me, being called a pedo is exactly like being called gay.

Jalpha wrote:She must have been in heat bro. She was literally fanging for it. Literally posting repeatedly in chat, in all caps "DO IT! POST YOUR DICK! THERE'S NO WAY IT'S 7 INCHES!"

How could any hot-blooded male deny such a request under the circumstances.
User avatar
telum12
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby ThorleifCleaver » Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:25 pm

Flameturtle wrote: Given that the whale spawning is going to be changed has this shifted your priorities much here? And how are you killing them so early? Just throwaway alts with spears and qb/full circle? I've never even seen a whale much less fought one so I'm wondering if theres some trick to it or if you're just relying on numbers in different snekkja's to kite it as much as possible


We'll still be "cheesing" whales, regardless of spawn mechanics, unless the actual combat behavior of the thing is recoded. As near as I can tell (and I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong), the map was/is composed of various overlapping spawn nodes, in which animals either of any type or specific types appear. I charted every inch of the little inland sea in the NW continent and found that the spawn locations were predictable, though what spawned there was not. Hence, the way I hunted whales was to simply sail around the node points until one spawned upon tile load. Then, you simply direct the critter to land one way or another and fight from shore. I can't imagine the devs taking the time to rework the behavior to prevent that. Anyway, even large groups don't really want to fight whales in a knarr, since that's a good way to get your knarr broken. Even with a large group it can take longer to whittle a 40-50k critter down to flee level than it takes the whale to generate enough IP to break your boat. That said, my own experience was that a mammoth would create openings much faster than a whale, not that it mattered given the other circumstances. And as far as killing them "early," the preconditions this world were only these: knarr, tarsticks, strength/gear combo enough to penetrate relatively high armor, patience to at least get the whale to flee. Opportunity knocks makes it easier, but it isn't really necessary.
ThorleifCleaver
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:01 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby Flameturtle » Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:50 pm

ThorleifCleaver wrote:
Flameturtle wrote: Given that the whale spawning is going to be changed has this shifted your priorities much here? And how are you killing them so early? Just throwaway alts with spears and qb/full circle? I've never even seen a whale much less fought one so I'm wondering if theres some trick to it or if you're just relying on numbers in different snekkja's to kite it as much as possible


We'll still be "cheesing" whales, regardless of spawn mechanics, unless the actual combat behavior of the thing is recoded. As near as I can tell (and I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong), the map was/is composed of various overlapping spawn nodes, in which animals either of any type or specific types appear. I charted every inch of the little inland sea in the NW continent and found that the spawn locations were predictable, though what spawned there was not. Hence, the way I hunted whales was to simply sail around the node points until one spawned upon tile load. Then, you simply direct the critter to land one way or another and fight from shore. I can't imagine the devs taking the time to rework the behavior to prevent that. Anyway, even large groups don't really want to fight whales in a knarr, since that's a good way to get your knarr broken. Even with a large group it can take longer to whittle a 40-50k critter down to flee level than it takes the whale to generate enough IP to break your boat. That said, my own experience was that a mammoth would create openings much faster than a whale, not that it mattered given the other circumstances. And as far as killing them "early," the preconditions this world were only these: knarr, tarsticks, strength/gear combo enough to penetrate relatively high armor, patience to at least get the whale to flee. Opportunity knocks makes it easier, but it isn't really necessary.



Ah so the cheese is the exact same as you would do for a bear/moose you just swap the boat for the land. Do they take hours to kill at the start? With 30 strength and a 20q bronze sword and sting you're only doing about 25 dmg past armour at max openings unless I'm wildly underestimating the stats and quality you can manage in a few days. I only mention this because Snuggle specifically said to start whale botting on day two, unless this is just to start mapping out spawns.

Even if you decide not to respond further, this was helpful, thank you.
Flamturtle's Haven & Hearth 2.0 Combat Guide! http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40466 - Remade for its 5th Anniversary!
PM to Contact.
User avatar
Flameturtle
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby ThorleifCleaver » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:50 pm

I have no idea if Snail maps out spawn points, or if he or anyone else ever came to the same conclusion about said points that I did. I might be very wrong. At any rate, I don't bot much save for farm-related tedium, but if I had to guess, I'd say their approach is simply to script a bot to sail around, avoid orca, and ding them when they spot a whale. Unless the devs have something unique planned, that same method would still work fine, even if whales become persistent objects. You could certainly hunt them very early in the world--really, any competent faction should be able to cobble together a crap knarr after three days of play. Like I say, the limiting factors are really just tarsticks and patience.

As for actually fighting whales (cachalots, not orca--different approach), the cheesing is sort of similar, as you say. I can't speak to exact numbers, but if you really want to kill one early you'd best use a boar spear for the penetration. You'd need enough strength, as I said, to do damage, and you'd just manage your openings while getting it to flee damage levels. It would take a while, but no-lifers love that kind of thing. At that point, you can do what Snail and others suggest, which is de/reaggro, or you could be lazy and let it swim off, then follow it and let it bleed to death, same as any other critter you're too lazy to kill. Thing is, unless you are using some really cheap tactics, you need to be able to at least manage the basic cheese fight.

Players also exploit a few other oddities in the whale mechanics, namely its inability to cross shallow water, meaning the water tiles you can wade in. The map gen occasionally creates little cul-de-sacs of deep water surrounded by shallow, sometimes as small as a single tile. This, I suppose, is the analogue of a cheese method boat hunters use: finding a cul-de-sac of land, luring a critter to it, and blocking it off before fighting. I've never done this and find it a bit idiotic. But, because the whale is a very large object, it can easily get wedged. Some find it helpful. There are far better ways, though.

Don't fight from a boat, at least until you get to titan levels. Then, you can, but you need to get OUT of your knarr. See, you wouldn't even consider this until your CON is to a level that you can tread water almost indefinitely. That way, you can fight and only enter your boat when you need to drink. You also need skills, melee or unarmed, enough to manage the openings in a standup fight, which is a tall order, though I bet the shield up fix will make that more attractive to the tryhard solo players. At any rate, while fights don't have to be to 40k damage. Like ANY fight, they just have to be to a flee threshold, which varies. And like I said, my experience is that mammoth open you up much faster. Others may have different experiences, but I found standup solo mammoth fights very challenging even in the 3-4k stat range and with melee in the 1.5k range, effective. I could at that point more or less stand on shore and duke it out with the whale, only moving occasionally.

Also, why cheese them early? In W13, cachalot meat made the best AGI and STR food, with troll a close though hardly farmable second for AGI2. A proper autumn steak could give over 1k AGI2 event points. That is very relevant when your stats are massive, but frankly it seems kind of a waste of time in the early game, what with easier, easily spammable options available. Sure, the whale scrimshaw and blowholes are great lp and the whaler's jacket is awesome armor, but not so much that you need them in the first week. You can make thousands of pork meat pies and DDDs for STR2 and AGI2 easier than you can hunt a whale. Save it for when it matters.
ThorleifCleaver
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:01 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby Beeftraeger » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:11 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote: [...]



Some interesting stuff!

Do you use Lure or Baitfishing? Casting Rod is harder to get early, Baitfishing needs lots of ressources, without fisher credo you lose your stuff pretty often, dont you?
Do you "farm" leeches with alts in swamp to have Bait?
What about dried frish in general?

You shave goats for Mohair so you shave 270 Goats? (15x3x2 Cloth x Yarn x Hair) :o :shock:


You share your pepperfarm bot? :oops: ;)
Beeftraeger
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:50 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby Flameturtle » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:18 pm

There's a trick with wild goats you can leave them unhitched and untamed but staying online with an alt near the pen and give them a clover to keep shearing over and over. If that's been patched out at some point you can still fairly consistently spawn herds of goats on a mountain every time the mountain gets reloaded.
Flamturtle's Haven & Hearth 2.0 Combat Guide! http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40466 - Remade for its 5th Anniversary!
PM to Contact.
User avatar
Flameturtle
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Project: "New Player Guide"

Postby vatas » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:21 pm

Flameturtle wrote:There's a trick with wild goats you can leave them unhitched and untamed but staying online with an alt near the pen and give them a clover to keep shearing over and over. If that's been patched out at some point you can still fairly consistently spawn herds of goats on a mountain every time the mountain gets reloaded.

Has been patched out.

Strategy is to gather clovers on established character and giving them to fresh alts along with stone axe; essentially sending them on a suicide mission since goats can aggro you.
User avatar
vatas
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:34 am
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele

PreviousNext

Return to How do I?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests