Neon14 wrote:Yes, they are. And rightfully so. Why should those who spend the time to get higher quality goods immediately have access to that with real money? Time put in is what you should get out. There's no freebies or shortcuts. And my definition of winning is not just the quality game, though if sub tokens are the method to getting to the quality standard we have right now, what is the point in working for it in the game if you can just buy it? I don't want to be on the same level as someone who plays only an hour a day but pays money. That's ludicrous.
So my two thoughts on this.
1. This is why I maintain that subscribing to the game is on the spectrum of your definition of "pay to win / unfair advantage" compared those who don't subscribe based on your definitions. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but we both agree that time is required to achieve higher quality goods or make progress in the game. However, you can't put in this time unless you are subscribed; therefore, at the very least you have to pay to subscribe to make progress in this game.
2. I personally believe (and I think many would agree that time is money). If you say it's unfair to those who can't invest in time, then it is an equivalent statement to say its unfair to those who can't invest time.
(i.e. Time = Money = variable X
The notion that "It's unfair to those who can't invest money to succeed." If time = money, then it is the same statement to say it's unfair to those who can't invest time to succeed )
Neon14 wrote:If you value time in this game more than money, why are you convinced people should be able to spend real money to "subsidize" the time? You HAVE to work hard for these things, if you aren't interested, or too lazy, you should not be able to shortcut your way to the top.
I think you misunderstand my valuing of game time more than money. I think you can do more with spending time playing the game versus what can be achieved with buying tokens. However, trading subtokens can help "subsidize" or assist those who do not have that amount of time.
Neon14 wrote:What part of "every aspect being changeable by things you can buy for real money right now" don't you agree with? You're aware that these items being purchased actually have an effect on almost EVERY crafting/crafted item, correct? A q100 kiln affects brick quality, and that affects smelter quality, and that affects metal quality, and that affects tool and weapon quality, and that affects the power/ability you have over other players. Curiosities are heavily affected by this as well. Some of the best curios are metal! Need I explain more? You can purchase high quality seeds with real money. With those seeds you get higher quality plants, higher quality foods, higher quality wood, etc.
I think I understand what you believe; however, i disagree with the impact. First, let's be more realistic and that q 60-70 bricks is the highest available traded for subtokens (Zox) (who from my understanding also trades for gold). Finding a q40-50 clay node is not super difficult (and I have seen two). Given the mining changes, you can easily find charcoal on level 5 that is quality greater than 120. With that math, the gap in brick quality is narrowed. Also, differences of 5 quality levels may seem like a lot if high quality was 25 versus 30. But we're currently dealing with a q 90 sword versus a q 80-85 sword is not a huge difference (assuming you're using q 100+ ore and q 100+ charcoal, which is also pretty easy to get). (I don't have the exact formula, but I can look it up when I get home from work, but trust me, it's not what I would consider a "significant" difference).
Again, I understand that the clay you buy can affect your industry. However, I don't believe it is a significant impact on what you can achieve without said clay. With regards to highest quality seeds, I don't know who is selling that high quality seed (most people I know with q100+ seeds won't sell them because they want to maintain their edge). I think we should separate what "could" be bought with subtokens versus what people are actually willing to sell/buy.
Neon14 wrote:You can't even purchase goods with anything other than sub tokens. You are quite literally forced to spend money to be at the level of other players, or somehow have gold, which even then has lower value.
Disagree also for two reasons.
1. Gold is much easier to find this world than last world, which is why it's probably lower in value. Also it means its easier to obtain.
2. Anecdotally, I trade goods all the time with neighbors, I just don't post on forums since I don't want to bother to travel the distance for bulk items (which is a bigger issue with trading). So far this week I've tried q 100 bars for wax, boar meat for bricks (because I don't have time to make em), etc. A lot of these trades I made wouldn't be reasonable for subtokens (and in a few cases I offered subtokens but they didn't want them, because they would rather have in game trade goods).
Lastly, I want to emphasize that any trade for a subtoken is a 1 time leap for what is good currently. People will find better clay and people will get better crops/trees/animals. In a hypothetical situation, a person could keep buying more subtokens to trade; however, 1) I don't believe a reasonable person would do this and 2) the seller can only use so many subtokens.
