Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby DDDsDD999 » Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:52 pm

dafels wrote:
terechgracz wrote:If that really would be an issue there can be mechanic for reducing spawns in heavily hunted places.

Kinda solid, can anyone think of any issues with this? I would probably reduce the q the heavier the place is hunted instead of spawn rate + the random spawn qs.

Maybe it is just creating another convoluted antibot mechanic that will hurt 99.5% of the other playerbase which I suspect this is the case

Just makes the problem even worse, bots monitoring high q nodes will still be the best way to get high q animals. The nodes still function the same, you just harvest it less frequently, and likely monitor more nodes.

The best solution is making animals random quality, It makes the best way to get high q animals just killing as many animals you can, which is just snekking around.

Making animal quality consistent throughout a province could also be good. It's similar to full random but makes the rewards consistent. Has the effect of some provinces becoming hotspots, but you don't really get the fun of rolling a high q animal.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Nightdawg » Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:55 pm

APXEOLOG wrote:I am living in a big village and always have fun going hunting on my Snekja, just moving through the river systems around. I think that's pretty much how 90% of the playrbase hunt.


this^
The man couldn't have explained it better

APXEOLOG wrote:And actually, Q spots are a big factor of why it's fun - there is always a chance that some random animal that you kill will actually be hq as long as you continue to explore the world.

The high-q bones/hides farming is not a normal hunting, and 90% of the playerbase do not really care about it. I don't think your average player would be iterating bone clay industry.



I think it would help players and the fun of hunting if we didn't have high Q spots, but rather a random chance when we go hunting to find a nice animal.
Right now, once we find good spots for animals, we kinda just drop alts there to check for their respawns.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Vraatjuh » Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:33 am

APXEOLOG wrote:
Vraatjuh wrote:


I am living in a big village and always have fun going hunting on my Snekja, just moving through the river systems around. I think that's pretty much how 90% of the playrbase hunt. And actually, Q spots are a big factor of why it's fun - there is always a chance that some random animal that you kill will actually be hq as long as you continue to explore the world.

The high-q bones/hides farming is not a normal hunting, and 90% of the playerbase do not really care about it. I don't think your average player would be iterating bone clay industry.


But exploring the world by boat at some point means I have to spend the first 15~30 minutes sailing trough pre-discovered territory to then maybe reach a place where I can find some new high quality animals. I however do not have time for that. I am happy if I can log-in an hour at a time, and I don't want to spend the first 15~30 minutes sailing to a spot where I might find something interesting.

Also, we do not really care about the high-q bones/hides farming because it is very tedious and boring without bots. And casuals don't have time for that. So making quality nodes random actually lets us participate in it without the effort of botting. It gives valuable goods to trade and might even give us a chance to make some decent bone clay over time. I do agree with previous posters that the quality spread of some animals should be narrowed though.

I just see random qualities as a quick and easy fix for a major flaw in the game. Are there other (maybe better) solutions? Most certainly. Does Loftar have time to implent them in this coming month on top of all the other stuff that has to be taking care of? Doubtful.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Mashadar » Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:55 am

Vraatjuh wrote:Also, we do not really care about the high-q bones/hides farming because it is very tedious and boring without bots. And casuals don't have time for that. So making quality nodes random actually lets us participate in it without the effort of botting. It gives valuable goods to trade and might even give us a chance to make some decent bone clay over time. I do agree with previous posters that the quality spread of some animals should be narrowed though.

You don't have time to travel a few minutes to a HQ animal spot where you will be guaranteed the spawns to be high quality, but you have the hours to travel around the map killing every animal you see, hoping that one of them is even remotely close to high quality? That doesn't check out.

You advocate for casual players, but you are suggesting a change that would hurt the casual players. Between all their members, large villages will find the time to boat around for some hours every day, casual players will not. They have to rely on known HQ spots they have previously found.

Yes, HQ animal spots are boring because you just end up placing an alt there to check them, with or without bots.
But casual players can afford "boring", they can't afford to spend countless hours on hunting.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Vraatjuh » Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:25 am

Mashadar wrote:
Vraatjuh wrote:

You don't have time to travel a few minutes to a HQ animal spot where you will be guaranteed the spawns to be high quality, but you have the hours to travel around the map killing every animal you see, hoping that one of them is even remotely close to high quality? That doesn't check out.

You advocate for casual players, but you are suggesting a change that would hurt the casual players. Between all their members, large villages will find the time to boat around for some hours every day, casual players will not. They have to rely on known HQ spots they have previously found.

Yes, HQ animal spots are boring because you just end up placing an alt there to check them, with or without bots.
But casual players can afford "boring", they can't afford to spend countless hours on hunting.


Hunting by itself is the fun activity, finding a high quality animal is the bonus. Going to the same spot every single time ruins the fun of the activity. That is my personal opinion of course.
I'm not here to compete with the big villages, I'm here to make my own playtime as much fun as possible. For me that's a combination of roaming around hunting animals and getting the occasional nice quality animal. Being thrilled with every bear/moose you see because it could be a q200+ one. Currently I can skip 9/10 bears/moose because I know their quality will be shit.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby APXEOLOG » Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:36 am

Vraatjuh wrote:But exploring the world by boat at some point means I have to spend the first 15~30 minutes sailing trough pre-discovered territory to then maybe reach a place where I can find some new high quality animals. I however do not have time for that. I am happy if I can log-in an hour at a time, and I don't want to spend the first 15~30 minutes sailing to a spot where I might find something interesting.

You can use crossroards to travel with Snekja. Spend time once, use it for a long time after. This is an easy way to give yourself access to the 3-4 closest river systems, that would give you weeks (or even months) to explore and hunt.

Vraatjuh wrote:Also, we do not really care about the high-q bones/hides farming because it is very tedious and boring without bots. And casuals don't have time for that.

Umm, but it's not? For the normal player, just visiting the location of the known hq spot frequently gives high enough income of hq animals. It can be a quest giver, certain travel node in the crossroad network, curio foraging entry point, etc.

Vraatjuh wrote:So making quality nodes random actually lets us participate in it without the effort of botting. It gives valuable goods to trade and might even give us a chance to make some decent bone clay over time. I do agree with previous posters that the quality spread of some animals should be narrowed though.

I think what you really mean here is "lets us participate in it without the effort". HQ nodes farming is a thing for multiple years already. And people did that without any bots for a long time. I'd say checkers only became a thing in the last 3 worlds (if we count the current one as well).
Also, are you telling me that the average casual hunter would have 300+ surv? Otherwise, what do you plan to sell?

Vraatjuh wrote:I just see random qualities as a quick and easy fix for a major flaw in the game. Are there other (maybe better) solutions? Most certainly. Does Loftar have time to implent them in this coming month on top of all the other stuff that has to be taking care of? Doubtful.


That's the problem. I don't think this is a flaw. It is something that bothers a couple of guys who want to compete with huge villages but do not want/able to put the comparative amount of effort.
Last edited by APXEOLOG on Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Mashadar » Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:41 am

Vraatjuh wrote:Hunting by itself is the fun activity, finding a high quality animal is the bonus. Going to the same spot every single time ruins the fun of the activity. That is my personal opinion of course.
I'm not here to compete with the big villages, I'm here to make my own playtime as much fun as possible. For me that's a combination of roaming around hunting animals and getting the occasional nice quality animal. Being thrilled with every bear/moose you see because it could be a q200+ one. Currently I can skip 9/10 bears/moose because I know their quality will be shit.

Yeah, it may be more fun. I guess there are multiple ways to define a "casual player".
I've been forced into being a casual player in recent worlds because I have too much work and obligations.
The resource I don't have enough of is time, so that means I have to be efficient with my time in the game.
But I suppose a casual player can also be someone with infinite time but who just wants to have fun and doesn't want to think too much.

Regardless, while it's not a great change for people with limited time, I wouldn't be strictly against having randomized animal qualities as an experiment for one world.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Vraatjuh » Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:46 am

Mashadar wrote:
Vraatjuh wrote:Hunting by itself is the fun activity, finding a high quality animal is the bonus. Going to the same spot every single time ruins the fun of the activity. That is my personal opinion of course.
I'm not here to compete with the big villages, I'm here to make my own playtime as much fun as possible. For me that's a combination of roaming around hunting animals and getting the occasional nice quality animal. Being thrilled with every bear/moose you see because it could be a q200+ one. Currently I can skip 9/10 bears/moose because I know their quality will be shit.

Yeah, it may be more fun. I guess there are multiple ways to define a "casual player".
I've been forced into being a casual player in recent worlds because I have too much work and obligations.
The resource I don't have enough of is time, so that means I have to be efficient with my time in the game.
But I suppose a casual player can also be someone with infinite time but who just wants to have fun and doesn't want to think too much.

Regardless, while it's not a great change for people with limited time, I wouldn't be strictly against having randomized animal qualities as an experiment for one world.


That's fair. I'm advocating from my way of playing obviously. I understand it's different for everyone.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby Vraatjuh » Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:00 am

APXEOLOG wrote:You can use crossroards to travel with Snekja. Spend time once, use it for a long time after. This is an easy way to give yourself access to the 3-4 closest river systems, that would give you weeks (or even months) to explore and hunt.

Depends where you settle, but this is one temporary fix indeed.

APXEOLOG wrote: Umm, but it's not? For the normal player, just visiting the location of the known hq spot frequently gives high enough income of hq animals. It can be a quest giver, certain travel node in the crossroad network, curio foraging entry point, etc.

But it comes down to running the the same spot over and over again. Something I explicitly don't want to do. I want every encounter with an animal to be potentially valuable, not just in this one specific spot.


APXEOLOG wrote: I think what you really mean here is "lets us participate in it without the effort". HQ nodes farming is a thing for multiple years already. And people did that without any bots for a long time. I'd say checkers only became a thing in the last 3 worlds (if we count the current one as well).
Also, are you telling me that the average casual hunter would have 300+ surv? Otherwise, what fo you plan to sell?

I have even made a thread about it in 2020 already, that's more than 3 worlds ago already. And yes, it's not that outrageous to have 200+ survival as a casual player. Especially not after a few months. As a more hardcore casual myself in the past I'd say that starts at max 1 tot 2 months into the game.

APXEOLOG wrote: That's the problem. I don't think this is a flaw. It is something that bothers a couple of guys who want to compete with huge villages but do not want/able to put the comparative amount of effort.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I have no illusion of competing with the big bois. I just don't see fun gameplay in having to put an alt at a spawn spot of bears/moose/cave anglers in order to get a steady amount of high quality products.
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Re: Daily reminder that animal nodes encourage botting

Postby APXEOLOG » Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:39 am

Vraatjuh wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I have no illusion of competing with the big bois. I just don't see fun gameplay in having to put an alt at a spawn spot of bears/moose/cave anglers in order to get a steady amount of high quality products.

Okay, let's finally move the discussion from "what is good for an average player" to "what I don't like about this game" because that's what it really is. It's not bad; I just don't like it when people refer to "it's a me-thing" as "it's like that for everyone."

I understand your standpoint - you want to have high-q materials available for you with less effort. It's a debatable topic and there is no correct answer to it, it's just a personal preference.
The suggested approach though is to transform hunting basically into a casino. The only way to counter random predictably - is to increase the amount of spins. So I see 3 scenarios of this change (from the big village standpoint):
1. The high-q animals are quite often -> industry competition takes a massive hit, making mining even more mandatory.
2. The high-q animals are quite rare:
a) Everyone is forced to hunt and rush surv
b) People start to bot hunting

Nothing changes for the "average casual hnh players", either industry-lovers or normal villagers are affected. Also increases the botting.
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