Game design issues

[rigeborod]

Ok, first of all, thank you for your efforts, game and great time. Your game is really great. You're doing it right. Thanks.

Still there are some issues I want to address. The main one is that you should decide who is your clients: those who is willing to pay or those who doesn't like your game enough to pay 10 dollars? Those who want to pay for the game or those who want to pay to skip the game in order to get unfair advantage? Those who're looking for battle or those who're willing to ruin other's game? Those who want to play long game or those who are bored after a month?

Answering these questions will guide you. Paying options, game design, all the stuff.

When you design permadeath, why is it so necessary? Ok, you really want that... Is it ok for player to start from scratch (or loose mostly all the progress), if this player is willing to play long game? No, it is not.
When you design Nidbanes, what is their purpose? To add some justice and some kind of protection for peaceful players? Why then required stat is stealth? Assuming battle players are already defeated...
When you design Death and saving some exp after it, why are you designing it so gankers will save 50% even if Nidbanes manage to kill them and victims will save only 30%? Is it a game for gankers?
When you design the end of the world, why you position it as a good thing and making a gank-fest of it? What about long-lasting goals and all the creative players?
This list could be extended.

I'm not as creative as you. Your game is awesome, but there are plenty of things to further develop. Your game is awesome, but you have small audience not because of payment scheme. Your game is awesome, but it is easy to ruin that.
Keep it going in proper direction! And again thanks for your hard work.

Btw, me and Atron will be happy to make an interview, if you're interested.

[Kaios]

Your game is awesome, but you have small audience not because of payment scheme.

I agree with that

[Redlaw]

Payment scheme and changing it can help, buuuut the player base and content still will need to be slightly to a way lot better then they are. The currant change might possably double the end users base a lot, but with out new content to back it that is all it will do.

[flagmaster]

Go play wow.
Full loot and permadeath are one of the best features here

[rigeborod]

Go play wow.
Full loot and permadeath are one of the best features here

You will probably will find way out without my help as being rude is not a good idea.

Actually I'm not against the permadeath option generally. But if there's a permadeath, it would be great to have an answer for the questions: why is it here and how it helps game and desired core audience. And when I say "help" I mean make more interesting, not easier. I think nowadays there's no answer for this question and that's why (among other issues) the players count is so small.

[Kalacia]

Well, i initially came to this game for a survival experience. Found haven and stranded among a few others that i didn't really play.

Permadeath makes me fear bears and boars. it makes death actually mean something in a sea of games that don' t punish you for your mistakes or being shit. It forces you to learn and adapt.

[rigeborod]

Well, i initially came to this game for a survival experience. Found haven and stranded among a few others that i didn't really play.

Permadeath makes me fear bears and boars. it makes death actually mean something in a sea of games that don' t punish you for your mistakes or being shit. It forces you to learn and adapt.

Actually permadeath is not all that about. As bears and boars doesn't kill you, only other players do. As EVE Online greatly punish for mistakes though there's no permadeath there.

[Vaku]

When you design permadeath, why is it so necessary?

I think, with regards to your questions on death in a game, it'd be worthwhile to listen to this guy's lecture, and subsequent lectures on death. Where I recommend you begin, rigeborod, is here: https://youtu.be/yJVpJ588ASc?t=2340

It's basically value theory on death, and since I find very few examples of permadeath in games, and less so reputable game design insights on permadeath... maybe it's worthwhile to listen to Shelly Kagan's lectures on more commonly conceived death. All your concerns are going to be broadly addressed there.



Simply, I'd just say your experiences are more valuable when there's more on the line. If consequences in games are a bit of a gamble, you're gambling a lot of your time, and with each achievement you accomplish while not dying, you're making a subtle reward with what you're gambling.

Your calmest wins will be picking berries and not dying...
A greater win is outrunning a badger, bear, bat, and not dying...
The greatest win, and biggest thrill may potentially come from surviving pvp... or for some, it means taking the life of another character, collecting a portion of their earnings.


Permadeath is a very worthwhile system to explore, and definitely something that HnH should retain throughout all its changes.

[Kalacia]

Well, i initially came to this game for a survival experience. Found haven and stranded among a few others that i didn't really play.

Permadeath makes me fear bears and boars. it makes death actually mean something in a sea of games that don' t punish you for your mistakes or being shit. It forces you to learn and adapt.

Actually permadeath is not all that about. As bears and boars doesn't kill you, only other players do. As EVE Online greatly punish for mistakes though there's no permadeath there.

When i first started whey back when.. i died to bears and boars. Hence why i avoid them like the plague now.

[rigeborod]

When you design permadeath, why is it so necessary?

I think, with regards to your questions on death in a game, it'd be worthwhile to listen to this guy's lecture, and subsequent lectures on death. Where I recommend you begin, rigeborod, is here: https://youtu.be/yJVpJ588ASc?t=2340

It's basically value theory on death, and since I find very few examples of permadeath in games, and less so reputable game design insights on permadeath... maybe it's worthwhile to listen to Shelly Kagan's lectures on more commonly conceived death. All your concerns are going to be broadly addressed there.



Simply, I'd just say your experiences are more valuable when there's more on the line. If consequences in games are a bit of a gamble, you're gambling a lot of your time, and with each achievement you accomplish while not dying, you're making a subtle reward with what you're gambling.

Your calmest wins will be picking berries and not dying...
A greater win is outrunning a badger, bear, bat, and not dying...
The greatest win, and biggest thrill may potentially come from surviving pvp... or for some, it means taking the life of another character, collecting a portion of their earnings.


Permadeath is a very worthwhile system to explore, and definitely something that HnH should retain throughout all its changes.

Thanks for the link. Permadeath is indeed very interesting system to explore, yet someone who makes game with permadeath should know why is it there. And if he knows why initially it was there he should monitor if it is still serving that goal. That's the only thing I'm concerned about permadeath in H&H. Oh and getting 30% exp back makes it not a real permadeath btw.