24 hour siege again

[OIchi]

Can someone explain to me how does the siege works right now?
Not sure if I should be asking this here, but couldn't find details anywhere.
I could probably read trough all the patch notes since few years ago and maybe eventually figure it out...

PS. If your going to answer "It does not" or "It's retarded" please just ignore my post.

[SnuggleSnail]

Rams destroy walls/catas. Moves 8 tiles/hour for the first 3 days, and 5/6 tiles/hour afterwards. Requires 5 days of charge to be able to break walls.
Archery towers destroy rams/catas. Requires 3 in game hours to be able to shoot.
Catas destroy rams/towers. Requires 1 RL hour to be able to shoot.


Attacker win condition>> have the ram be next to the wall with nothing capable of hitting it while it's charged.
Defender win condition>> fight the attackers and take control of the siege camp long enough to destroy the rams OR gather more brimstone/resources to build more towers/catas than them and make it so they can never bring the ram close to the wall without losing it

The strategy, even when siege was ~16 hours, was to just wait until it isn't peak time for your adversary and gather all your bois to rush the siege camp when most of them aren't there. With 5 days of siege time per wall/section the defenders get to do this constantly then run back to the safe pali if the attackers actually have people to defend every few hours for months straight. If the attackers lose once they lose all progress.

PVPbois have complained about siege being """impossible""" a bunch of times before, and they're usually being pedantic dickheads - but with this siege system there will actually never be a real siege. Not if you offered the strongest village poor eastern europeans in the game in the game 100k USD to siege the weakest "relevant" village. The only way it can possibly happen is if people literally don't care enough to defend at all, and even then it's still a month like huge struggle that requires somebody babysit the ram for weeks straight just making so it doesn't self-destruct from decay every 2 hours.

[vatas]

Can someone explain to me how does the siege works right now?
Not sure if I should be asking this here, but couldn't find details anywhere.
I could probably read trough all the patch notes since few years ago and maybe eventually figure it out...

PS. If your going to answer "It does not" or "It's retarded" please just ignore my post.

After you build a battering ram, it has to "dry" a certain time before it can damage the wall. This depends on following factors:
1. is the Wall Palisade or Brickwall? (Palisade has base time of 24 hours and Brickwall has base time of 32 hours)
2. Age of the claim (called "Siege Power" in pclaim interface) that is simple 1x modifier at 100% which takes roughly one month to reach.
3. Siege Boost (you raise this by Ancestral Worship. You can get up to 3x modifier that stays permanently, but it can be increased up to 6x temporarily.)

So if you try to siege a base with a Brickwall and they have a fully aged claim that can be boosted up to 6x, to my understanding, siege require a whopping 64 hours of guarding the ram, which is two days and 16 hours. (All times are IRL.)

[SnuggleSnail]

siege require a whopping 64 hours of guarding the ram, which is two days and 16 hours

it was 500% * 24 hours/120 for pali, and 160 for brick walls at the start of the world. I think they lowered the max power% from 5x to 4x, making it 96/128. Too lazy to go back and verify because either way when you consider there's gonna be like 5-20 walls it could be halved or doubled and make no difference.


I'd add that it actually is a really fucking brutal system for a few weeks of the world and we absolutely FUCKED a bunch of people off the back of like 1-2 hour "sieges" while they were asleep. This entire situation is another example of the game having no identity. It simultaneously wants to be brutal fuck around and find out zone and a completely safe space.

[OIchi]

Well, that seems like a poor excuse of a siege system tbh.
If things are like that it would probably be better to remove siege completely, it would at least be less confusing.

I do think that 24/32h raids were long enough, the only issue I'm seeing is that defenders would sometimes notice the siege way too late since it is often started just after they log off.
Constantly defending your machines for 24/32h is high enough time investment to prevent sieges of small villages, but if it goes down to let's say 4h due to you tracking when someone is usually online it fails.

My proposition of the solution would be:
1. Remove the siege boosting.
2. Let the owner of the claim set "siege hour", everyone can check what it is set to by inspecting the claim.
3. Siege machines start aging after they pass the "siege hour" eg. "siege hour" is set to 8am, and you place your battering ram at 1am, it will only start counting required charge after 8am.
4. As long as there is a battering ram or catapult with non-zero charge within let's say 50 tiles, charging starts immediately(to allow continuous siege without waiting for next window).

Given the attacker placed his machines right before the time set by defender it would make sieges 24/32 depending on the wall, while providing the defender with maximum possible time to react.


The other issue I'm constantly hearing about is about being unable to leave for vacation fearing of the loss during your inactivity.

My proposition of the solution to that would be:
Create claim reinforce system, that you would be able to activate using your numen points.
Activation would make your claim completely invulnerable to siege (machines would not start charging) for a set amount of time, I'd say 7 days would be fair.
There would be a 7 days preparation from activation to invulnerability (plan ahead) to prevent using it as defence to incoming coming sieges.
It cannot be activated if there is a siege in progress. Sieges started during the preparation phase can be continued during the invulnerability period.
Ability obviously has to have a cooldown. 30 days seems fair too me.

[Hesufo]

I'd add that it actually is a really fucking brutal system for a few weeks of the world and we absolutely FUCKED a bunch of people off the back of like 1-2 hour "sieges" while they were asleep. This entire situation is another example of the game having no identity. It simultaneously wants to be brutal fuck around and find out zone and a completely safe space.

Its pretty simple, they want to adhere to the idea of being able to remove invaders quickly and also overprotect established settlements to appease pacifists. Which leaves raiders and pure pvpers in an awkward spot

[SnuggleSnail]

the idea of being able to remove invaders quickly

If this is the case it has done nothing to achieve that.

[Massa]

I'll just post this reminder that the reason we changed siege going into this world was because last world every other noob was being sieged, while there very little to no interesting PvP between equal players. At least that's the way it seemed to me. Not saying that was correct, but please elaborate on your thoughts on this point.

my thoughts are that you sold this game on it running off the rules of the jungle and yes i'm going to siege anyone and everyone i can or just not play (what we did this time)

back in the day everyone got their door knocked on, including me constantly. 5 days? absurd. 5 days was your choice to delete siege from being a component of the game, not "nerfing" it. also, there was most certainly thorough siege and pvp between any equals that could be mustered.

you'd probably have more equal and inclined players with a mixture of less inaccessible fast travel methods+a smaller world. making it bigger and take hours to get to your neighbor isn't going to foster any camaraderie, the only people on the rivers are da killaz at that point.

just add stat caps if you want some kind of equalization. you can give these people you're protecting fucking guns or immortality and they'll still manage to drown 2 tiles into a river.

[Nightdawg]

or immortality and they'll still manage to drown 2 tiles into a river.

I feel personally attacked

[Clemins]

I'll just post this reminder that the reason we changed siege going into this world was because last world every other noob was being sieged, while there very little to no interesting PvP between equal players. At least that's the way it seemed to me. Not saying that was correct, but please elaborate on your thoughts on this point.

Honestly, as snail points out, haven lacks a clear identity. But until today, I thought this was just you guys wanting to appeal to as wide of an audience as you can. Which I think is a bad game design choice, but understandable from a business standpoint.

But its clear to me now that this isn't totally the case. I'm tired of people (myself included) assuming what your intentions are.

So let me ask you this:

What do you guys want haven to be?
Where is this all going?
What fundamental goals do you have for this game?

Before anyone here spends more time theorycrafting siege, we need to know if you and jorb actually want siege in the game. I mean this genuinely, we need to understand what you want haven to be.