Allow villages to revoke pclaims without the time check

[Dawidio123]

I'm still not sure this is actually going to be a problem though. I've never heard of needing to constantly dry siege engines to destroy claim whackamoling within range of Vbannering.

I'm assuming this happened to you, what was going on?

We just kept on finding fresh pclaims around arcanum (Not really head to the wall close, but close enough to be problematic if a safe pali was to be built there), if we were lucky early on and then we could bash it, if we were unlucky we had to make a ram (not really about materials at that point, it was kinda late) and come back to it once it dried (we just left an alt there in case but nobody came).
We are sure those were someone's attempt to grief us since they all belonged to one person but nothing came out of it except our time was wasted.

[Sevenless]

Villages using "Revoke the Privilege" have since May of last year been capable of revoking personal claims older than themselves, provided that they are within 90% of the age of the claim being revoked. Apparently we never seem to have posted about this change, but we have now updated the description of the action to reflect the accurate situation.

- Jorb

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=66316&p=839333&hilit=revoke#p839333

According to the post here, what's being asked for in this thread is already possible for any claims made after village founding (really hard, though not impossible for claims placed before the Vclaim). I thought the overlap mechanic worked based on how long the Pclaim had been overlapped, but decided to dig for the dev comments about it. I can't find any comments about it being changed from this system, but feel free to check if I missed it and please link so I can learn more.

[Dawidio123]

I thought the overlap mechanic worked based on how long the Pclaim had been overlapped.

Tbh same, and it would make more sense to be this way (so you can't just place vc asap and then tendril your way around all the continent revoking claims). But i might be wrong.

[bmjclark]

Villages using "Revoke the Privilege" have since May of last year been capable of revoking personal claims older than themselves, provided that they are within 90% of the age of the claim being revoked. Apparently we never seem to have posted about this change, but we have now updated the description of the action to reflect the accurate situation.

- Jorb

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=66316&p=839333&hilit=revoke#p839333

According to the post here, what's being asked for in this thread is already possible for any claims made after village founding (really hard, though not impossible for claims placed before the Vclaim). I thought the overlap mechanic worked based on how long the Pclaim had been overlapped, but decided to dig for the dev comments about it. I can't find any comments about it being changed from this system, but feel free to check if I missed it and please link so I can learn more.

It's based on how long it has overlapped. Jorb explained it poorly (or forgot how it worked). I just tested it it to be sure. Finding the claim after a day (pretty reasonable) would mean that you'd have to overlap the claim for a full 9 days to get rid of it. If the pclaim is a few banners away from you and it takes 3 days to banner to it (16 hour dry time on banners), it would take 27 days before you could declaim it.

Also, this world my town actually did end up in a situation where someone built a pclaim next to us and built a wall on it to siege us. We sieged the wall down in response. Sieging the wall down took 8 hours. Under this new proposed system, we couldnt have sieged that wall down without breaking the peace and even if we could, we would have needed to have a ram last the full 24 hours because claim power is gone. That's a lot of power to give a 4 bones, a dream and an 8 hour dry time.

[SnuggleSnail]

It's okay, the siege changes are bad enough they'll remove them within a week

also me: "it's okay, the boulders are bad enough they'll remove them within a week"

[Dawidio123]

It's okay, the siege changes are bad enough they'll remove them within a week

also me: "it's okay, the boulders are bad enough they'll remove them within a week"

There's nothing we can do

[vatas]

It's okay, the siege changes are bad enough they'll remove them within a week

also me: "it's okay, the boulders are bad enough they'll remove them within a week"

To recycle my old post:

About the "cycle of abuse" -thing, I have to admit that Jorb basically did this with the random boulders:

1) Throw a monkey wrench into an existing system.
2) Tell people to solve them by updating their bots.
3) Go radio silent for two years when people point out that everyone not botting just effectively lost area mining.

B-tier: Mining now
C-tier: Mining as it was before patch "Ghost Apple Gelatin" (2015-2021), Mining between auto-chip and "Loose Velvet" (2023-2023)
F-tier: Mining between "Ghost Apple Gelatin" and "whenever they finally hotfixed auto-chip into area mine" (2021-2023)

Mining was made much worse for TWO YEARS! Only benefit: can acquire boulders for Credo quests involving chipping (optionally, count cosmetic purposes now available.) Also these benefits are in the current iteration, you just have to manually stop your area-mining character if a desired boulder appears.

[VDZ]

Also, this world my town actually did end up in a situation where someone built a pclaim next to us and built a wall on it to siege us. We sieged the wall down in response. Sieging the wall down took 8 hours. Under this new proposed system, we couldnt have sieged that wall down without breaking the peace and even if we could, we would have needed to have a ram last the full 24 hours because claim power is gone. That's a lot of power to give a 4 bones, a dream and an 8 hour dry time.

Did something change about palisade drying? As far as I'm aware they're handbashable within the first 24 hours.

That's a lot of power to give a 4 bones, a dream and an 8 hour dry time.

4 bones, a dream, 10 leather, 5 rope, 2 bone glue, quite a bit of wood and a 24 hour drying time. With that much effort it's reasonable that it would also take some time or effort to remove it. Maybe '90% of overlapped time' is too much, but 'I want to be able to instantly use a wrecking ball on a nearby hermit's dried palisade' (which may not be the intent but would be the result) doesn't seem to be the way to go if you ask me.

Maybe the better solution is to address the 'without breaking the peace' part: battering rams should be constructible and usable on active vclaims even if there's also an active, older pclaim at the location it gets used. Dropping a new vclaim plus a battering ram would take almost 48 hours during which the attack can easily be disrupted, and such attacks can be prevented in the first place by having your own vclaim. So it wouldn't be feasible for cheesy attacks, but it would let nearby villages attack nearby claims in a reasonable way. (Ram still required; it only makes sense that if someone manages to dry a palisade, it can't be removed without a ram.)

[Sevenless]

It's based on how long it has overlapped. Jorb explained it poorly (or forgot how it worked). I just tested it it to be sure. Finding the claim after a day (pretty reasonable) would mean that you'd have to overlap the claim for a full 9 days to get rid of it. If the pclaim is a few banners away from you and it takes 3 days to banner to it (16 hour dry time on banners), it would take 27 days before you could declaim it.

Also, this world my town actually did end up in a situation where someone built a pclaim next to us and built a wall on it to siege us. We sieged the wall down in response. Sieging the wall down took 8 hours. Under this new proposed system, we couldnt have sieged that wall down without breaking the peace and even if we could, we would have needed to have a ram last the full 24 hours because claim power is gone. That's a lot of power to give a 4 bones, a dream and an 8 hour dry time.

Thanks for doing the testing. Gonna spitball my thoughts here: Still not comfortable with the instant declaim, I've seen Vidol griefing done in the past and this would be a much more effective version of it.

Thought A) Would "pclaims can't be extended into your village" and just claiming a Vbanner or two extra around your village be enough? Would let you establish a protective buffer ahead of time.

Thought B) is the issue with the current system is the duration of overlap required? Would changing that % required work for this situation?

[Aerona]

A battering ram versus a walled personal claim inside the village sounds like a much better representation of eminent domain than just revoking it. Though it doesn't seem fair if the owner of the P-claim can't break through the village walls (or invite someone in to do so for them) in exchange.