PvP, Player Attrition, and the Future of Haven & Hearth

[Havenasket]

I don't know how to make people confident enough to at least try, but I'm pretty sure step1 to solving all of siege's problems is to make it EXTREMELY simple.

Thanks for your reply. I get that you have a lot of siege experience and things might work differently for top PvP players. But for the vast majority of regular or new players, these mechanics simply aren’t accessible or realistic. Most people don’t have the time, knowledge, or setup to defend like PvP elites do.

You say you were able to fight and win as a 50/90/90 char versus 3000/3000/3000. In my experience, I died in W15 even as a 400/400/400 character in full Q300 steel armor. When our village inevitably falls, I’ll quit this world of H&H with less than a week of playtime. I won’t buy tokens, a subscription, or hats—I’ll spend my time and money on another game. But I do love H&H, and that’s why I’m leaving this feedback—hoping the devs will listen and think it over.

That’s the main issue: the current system might “work” for a handful of highly skilled players, but it doesn’t work for everyone else. If “git gud” is the only answer, most players will just leave. Not everyone wants—or is able—to play at the PvP elite level, and a healthy game needs both competitive and casual communities. If only the top 1% can survive, the game shrinks to just them—and that’s not sustainable for any MMO.

This isn’t about theorycrafting the perfect defense; it’s about making sure ordinary players actually have a reason to keep playing.

[gravesmerch]

haven pvp can be fixed by an experimental PvE server with anti-grief limitations on activities like claiming, building, terraforming, etc

[Girth]

Again, I think you being so discouraged or confused by mechanics that you don't even want to try to defend yourself is a valid criticism, especially when it's a bit of a general consensus. It doesn't matter that you're wrong, the effect is the same. Of course people who don't even try will lose.

I think the main issue that people people deal with when considering PVP activities is the perception of loss. The result of weighing pros/cons, for many, is to not engage with it at all, without figuring in the variable that it is entirely possible that they may actually have zero choice in the matter of fighting or learning how to run. people will often treat PVP or even the melee combat system like they would a disfavored section of the crafting system like herding animals for Q or building trellis.

i recall you saying that you have died like 10 times or something this world and I believe you. it's just that your perception of loss is much smaller because you have formalized and made industrial the tons and tons of systems that underlie the game. this enables you to remain functional despite a death.

haven pvp can be fixed by an experimental PvE server with anti-grief limitations on activities like claiming, building, terraforming, etc

all said, PVE server would be so BORING and LAME because the game would devolve into claim trolling every square inch of a continent, and for what? most players dont even put points into combat stats. i had to fight for weeks just to get my friends to invest in survival skill just so that they wouldn't shrimp everything that they shot in a dungeon.
yap yapp yapppp

How would you even propose to resolve the glaring issue of claim trolling when the meta game relies on having alts with claims/keys. one player one claim would be insanity, but the only way i could think of it. pclaims not being able to be built around local resources, just to find your stupid neighbors waiting for that ancient root to tick off at the time of respawn. what could you do, really? even offering some system in the main world.. a "you cant attack me and i cant attack anyone else forever" flag would have to contain extreme restrictions beyond this in order for this to be balanced. extreme claim restrictions, no palisade, no animals, no hunting, no causing death at all ever, not allowed to collect local resources. imagine a trial mode of haven, but worse. but at least you get to play the real game when you finally decide to drown yourself.

[animary]

If you are strong enough and experienced enough to fight off a raid on your farm/village, or to seek revenge if it happens in your absence, you are not likely to be attacked. You don't have to do anything to anger them, you don't have to own anything they want, your existence makes you a target, these people just want to destroy. The people who proudly proclaim, "I love to hunt sprucecaps"; the ones who state "hermits shouldn't be allowed live". The ones who will attack you or your base merely because you are there. With no fear of retribution because there is none in this game.

This has long been a deterrent to prospective new players. For years mention of Haven on generic gaming forums has brought comments of "don't bother, you're lucky to build anything without some powerful player coming along and trashing it ...and killing you if you are there". And I suspect the word is spreading on Steam now. A few months ago someone opened a nice market, four pages of compliments on the stock, prices, and friendliness of the owners ....in less than four weeks it was raided and destroyed. We recently lost our community well. This is not conducive to attracting new players nor retaining current ones.

If I log in to find siege engines at my place, I'll just log out and await the next world. Anyone attacking will get nothing but exercise, I have nothing worth taking. This would be destruction merely for the sake of destroying, which is a fine comment on the attackers.

[animary]

"...haven pvp can be fixed by an experimental PvE server"

The devs have stated they've no interest in PVP and non-PVP servers. The game is what it is; it's good enough to keep me coming back for the rpg aspects but not good enough for me to even consider putting money into it.

[animary]

"...PVE server would be so BORING and LAME..."

There are so many ways to die in this game without worrying that any other player you encounter will kill you for no reason other than you are there. It could convert the game from anti-social paranoia to social cooperation between villages, traveling merchants, shipping lines between continents. Aggression could be on a more industrial level - bandits attacking merchant convoys, pirates attacking shipping; and palis would be near invulnerable to deter the current wanton destruction.

[Nightdawg]

You won't see a PvE server without absolute autists that will spawn 200 alts to block you in your base or other crap.

Local servers that can be moderated though, that would be good and feasible. But we're not getting those either.

[The_Blode]

anyone who thinks PvE isn't dangerous at all and PvP is the only source of death should check out my recent h+h clip on my twitch channel (theblode1337)
i spawned in fresh just to give a rundown of the game and instantly lost half my HHP to a bear, narrowly avoiding actual death through luck and some foreknowledge of enemy aggro

[animary]

"You won't see a PvE server without absolute autists that will spawn 200 alts to block you in your base or other crap."

200 separate logins from one point? the bandwidth alone would cripple you. But this type of thing occurs with any game, it is up to the programmers to anticipate and block or work around such things. If there was a will for a non-PVP world it could be done. I wonder how many hacks and exploits have been removed/blocked from haven as it is.

[Nightdawg]

"You won't see a PvE server without absolute autists that will spawn 200 alts to block you in your base or other crap."

200 separate logins from one point? the bandwidth alone would cripple you. But this type of thing occurs with any game, it is up to the programmers to anticipate and block or work around such things. If there was a will for a non-PVP world it could be done. I wonder how many hacks and exploits have been removed/blocked from haven as it is.

I'm talking about unmoderated griefing in the PVE public server, where you can't even defend yourself against a naked alt.

I'm not arguing against PVE servers, I'm telling you why we won't see them. I wish they allowed hosting your own server that you can actually moderate, like minecraft or other survival games. I've been wishing for this for years.

Also "it is up to the programmers to anticipate and block or work around such things" seems to always be the answer coming from people with zero coding experience that think programming is some magic that solves all problems through the power of flowers, friendship and unicorns. lol