BRING BACK SIEGE

[Dawidio123]

I think it's extremely ironic that the most sprucecap friendly players were in favor of keeping it out. There's no secret why. It would have been more dangerous for *everyone* not just Spruces. This would have invited more possible pvp among those leaving scents in the early days by allowing them to visit retribution upon one another:
It's hilarious to me that the one thing that would have invited *more conflict* among PvP players in the world was largely rejected by the PVP players, and largely supported by the hermit friendly players, because it would have made traditional PVP groups bear some risk.

What retribution? A sprucecap/small group is not getting vandalism before i get a palisade (especially not after the cost changes lol, great change for the newbies kek), a literal fence prevents any concept of possible retribution for them. Living in a cave is a defense for faction vs faction where both sides can be expected to have vandalism in the first few days and fence literally does nothing in that case while a cave usually gives you AT LEAST 20-30 minutes of time to group up (saves lp for claim too but that's more of a side thing), it doesn't affect faction vs shitters. Arguably, this world we had an unclaimed cave nearby with a literal natural support to mine into our starting cave, it was easier for most hermits to actually mine to us than get vandalism. (And we left plenty of scents)

If a fence was a real defense against another real group i would prefer to live in a fenced base over a cave (obviously you still want a cave for mine pyre but w/e). I wouldn't complain if they made it so the whole leather process is slightly faster and you can get the palisade setup quickly enough before fence stops being useful, but that's just not the case (and considering how easy it is to farm early lp through amazing mechanic of questing you can get vandalism in the first 24h without that much trouble IMO, but more realistically if you also do other things than quest it'll take you like 2-3 days).

Edit: To add to it, the thing that mainly keeps factions in a cave relatively safe is a mutually assured destruction, you know if you cave raid a faction they will spend the next 24h trying to fuck you back, are you going to stay up for 24h? It's not like it's difficult to cave raid. But at the same time a hermit won't even think about doing that or even tracking you, that's not cave bases fault, it's ingrained in a hermit psyche that they can't do anything against the big boys because of all the "broken mechanics and bug abuse" cacophony so they never even try.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

What retribution? A sprucecap/small group is not getting vandalism before i get a palisade

. . .

It's not like it's difficult to cave raid. But at the same time a hermit won't even think about doing that or even tracking you, that's not cave bases fault, it's ingrained in a hermit psyche that they can't do anything against the big boys because of all the "broken mechanics and bug abuse" cacophony so they never even try.

These are both true to an extent, but I think you're underplaying the effect that these levels of protection provide early game to the ability to run around and troll people. We both know it's a *lot* more difficult to mine into a cave base in the first 48 hours than it is to get vandalism as well, lol.
Your own thoughts on the issue at the time aren't quite as "meh it didn''t matter":


I will concede this wasn't going to *entirely change* the dynamics of early game, however. But it would have made it far more likely for people to kill each other instead of just nut-cup and focus on killing the newbs.
I also think you underestimate the capacity for mid-tier players to rush vandalism and kill someone who is bullying them. It's certainly far more likely than them mining for hours to break a faction's cave base. Ya'll are always yelling that newbs should start fighting - Why lock it behind a stupid ass grind to crack an early cave base?

Didn't you guys get into Felix's cave but then agree not to kill him for something nominal in return? Or vice versa. Fuck if I remember, or care tbh.

[Dawidio123]

I also think you underestimate the capacity for mid-tier players to rush vandalism and kill someone who is bullying them. It's certainly far more likely than them mining for hours to break a faction's cave base. Ya'll are always yelling that newbs should start fighting - Why lock it behind a stupid ass grind to crack an early cave base?

I think you overestimate it (which is weird considering recent events). What is vandal cost rn anyways, like 200k+ total in skills that provide no value to your actual combat/crafting ability. The only way ppl have time to focus on questing that much in the first days is if they play in a bigger group and things are taken care of by others. I'll stand by the fact that hermits are about as likely to mine to you as they are to get vandalism before the palisade is placed. (Literally never happens)

The time needed to get vandalism (via questing) is a lot higher than for most cave raids (variable tbh, but i think true on average, most cave raids can be done in like 30-60 minutes, if a group is very careful when claiming adjacent caves that might actually be like 2-3h), so if someone is autistic enough to do the first they can do the second. I imagine a lot more mid-tier groups have someone focusing on str and mining rather than focusing those criminal skills.

I would absolutely be for making criminal skill cheaper to make them more accessible and lessening my own grind.

[SnuggleSnail]

See, this is what I mean. Some dumb retard like robben says some baseless shit, and nobody challenges it because nobody wants to interact with them. Then, eventually it just becomes community consensus among the people who aren't directly involved.

Reworking siege for the eight gorrilianth time is a waste because even if it's good it'll get broken again over hyperbolic complaints from a crowd of people doing a loss aversion bias/fearmongering.

Pmuch everything this idiot said was demonstrably wrong, but he assertively made so many wrong statements it'd be too much effort to go through point by point to pick everything apart. Not 100% sure if he's ragebaiting or just dumb and overconfident. Prolly both

[Robben_DuMarsch]

That's a lot of words for a tantrum, bro.

[GreenScape]

Current siege system is objectively a complete crap. Back in legacy even a small group of dedicated players had a chance to hurt a large faction.
Or even two small villages could siege each other. Was there any siege made by a small village against another small village this world?

Now there is a stupid 'alarm` system built in that makes covert sieges impossible.
You have to break a thing piece which makes everyone in that region alert. Moreover, given how provinces are always going to belong to one large faction or
another, you're basically always facing some large faction just to settle some grievances with your neighbor. Moreover, even given this stupid and unfair
mechanics (unfair towards large factions that know how to lick balls of J&L), you could have some chance to catch a perp outside his walls, but to what end?
Unless you have a PvP character with a murderous rage and b12 you're not going to kill the perp. Which means that even considering the option of ganking is
unimaginably stupid. You just waste your time with no real option of revenge. In the end, the only people having fun are the slimy turds like that one, above.

[OIchi]

"Siege bad, fix siege" over and over again.
I think that siege is fundamentally bad for haven and cannot be fixed.
People rarely have fun during siege, neither attackers or defenders, at most you can be happy with the result almost never the process.
Successful ones usually result in people quitting and attackers getting to destroy things, since there was never anything of value to gain.
What constitutes good siege system in your opinion?
Should it be easily accessible? why?

[Nightdawg]

"oh no the cacophony

anyway, here's variable material palisades"

- jorb, probably

[SnuggleSnail]

What constitutes good siege system in your opinion?

Any siege that results in a 10+ page moot thread or has a youtube video with >1,000 views

Haven siege is one of the most interesting systems in any game ever. The only reason I play the game is because of the auroa siege. Some big siege happening is a super hype interesting event that makes the world feel alive even if you're not directly involved, and people quitting over sieges is insanely overstated. Even when people "quit" over siege, what they mean is they're taking a break for next world slightly earlier than they otherwise would've.

The original Haven was so much more brutal and interesting than modern haven. I think the community attitude towards brutality has changed so drastically mostly because of a slow and steady increase in tedium/decrease in "interesting"/brutal moments leading to most of the PVPbois leaving. It's very sad, imo

idk why you're so adversarial, we agree on pretty much every point. Disliking ram alerts for the reasons you stated is probably just rose tinted glasses tho

[MightySheep]

Sieges in wurm are still to this day some of my best gaming moments ever, we had like a kingdom of 30 ppl staying up all night firing catapults at a village for 10 hours straight

In haven sieges are pretty boring and the mechanics are pretty weird, the defenders usually just get confused and randomly commit suicide but I guess its still the most fun events haven has to offer since theres not much else

I dont know why robben has to categorize everything into "hermits" / "faction bois" like blocking your cave entrance isnt some absolute basic shit if I was a day 1 hermit playing for first time on launch Id block my cave with a pclaim because I'm capable of reading and Im not a complete pepega... The real divide here is ppl with a brain vs not because why on earth would any1 be in favor of being completely unable to settle down? especially since the concept of 'main continent' was added it was literal swarm of players covering every inch of the surface on day 1. Not sure I understand the logic of saying it would be bad for trolls, griefers and pvp players, pretty sure wed thrive in that situation, it would just be cancer for every1.

I dont really understand how do you make siege easier vs big villages and harder vs hermits at the same time. Maybe you have some op imagined system that u should share with the rest of us because Idk how youd do that. Every variation of siege in this game and others is incredibly defender favored as it should be so experienced groups arent really in much danger. The only real way you protect hermits is to make the cost of doing a siege higher than the potential rewards but that doesnt stop autistics