Bots, lets talk about them.

[boshaw]

The difference between botting in HnH and in RuneScape or WoW is that in the two latter games you keep you character no matter what and the damage to others is not huge.
Botting in HnH is very damaging since it is a permadeath game. Why should I spend time or money with this game if I know there would come a buffed, pimped up character and tear down my wall in a short time and instakill me?
It is all about customer confidence in the project. It is in my case low.

Bots or no bots that will still happen with no lifers and big villages that coordinate, and honestly in this world I would take average players in numbers over a titan anyday.

[dageir]

Nolifers deserve their prize, so do bigger factions, since they are bigger, but cheaters deserve nothing.

[APXEOLOG]

I just want to clarify one thing. Through all this thread i actually saw only one real reason against bots - "how will i win in pvp against botted character?" (actually there also was smth like "botters get everything easier and this makes non-botters sad" but this is just envy, isn't it?). So i want to ask you, have you ever fight in pvp? fight vs botted character? fight vs player who not bot but plays twice more then you?
Because i've never saw fighters (at least fighters i know) complaining about bots. So it is strange to see people complaining about pvp when most of PvPers already left the game (for obvious reason)

[dageir]

No it is about the principle of a level playground. Yes people play more than me and get a leg up, yes they are more people than me and get a leg up, yes they know the game mechanics better than me and get a leg up, but advantaged gained by cheating breaks the principle. Have you heard of principles?

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

Also because I do not want to turn Haven and Hearth into another idle game.

[Pan_w_okularach]

I just want to clarify one thing. Through all this thread i actually saw only one real reason against bots - "how will i win in pvp against botted character?" (actually there also was smth like "botters get everything easier and this makes non-botters sad" but this is just envy, isn't it?). So i want to ask you, have you ever fight in pvp? fight vs botted character? fight vs player who not bot but plays twice more then you?
Because i've never saw fighters (at least fighters i know) complaining about bots. So it is strange to see people complaining about pvp when most of PvPers already left the game (for obvious reason)

I'm afraid I can not agree. Of course we, real fighters, have learned to deal with your titans sometimes twice our stats, but at some point it's just getting ridiculous. Like that autistic kid who would hide in his brickwall (thanks to the siege system) botting bluebells, shocked frogs, q70 edels, troll skulls etc for 3 fucking years, no lifing hard (just managing so many bots must be hard work I imagine), and all that effort to kill characters worth 20 times less in LPs. And then all you noobs act like this is an accomplishment. I mean, would DIS even stand a chance against anyone if they didn't have an army of noobs fed with botted curios?

[ddrboy54]

Because i've never saw fighters (at least fighters i know) complaining about bots.

Fellow botters and wall jump bug exploiters don't complain about bots? Shocking.

[Ethan]

I just want to clarify one thing. Through all this thread i actually saw only one real reason against bots - "how will i win in pvp against botted character?" (actually there also was smth like "botters get everything easier and this makes non-botters sad" but this is just envy, isn't it?). So i want to ask you, have you ever fight in pvp? fight vs botted character? fight vs player who not bot but plays twice more then you?
Because i've never saw fighters (at least fighters i know) complaining about bots. So it is strange to see people complaining about pvp when most of PvPers already left the game (for obvious reason)

I strangely agree with this. In the constraints of this game, I don't think botting can really be called cheating. especially as it is not forbidden. Who decides what behavior is within the rules and what is considered cheating?

I am picking just about everyone who is calling botting cheating is also "abusing" other areas of the game or using other third party tools.
Are custom clients straight away cheating? Are custom clients ok as long as they only have small automation? Where is the line between what is an automation and botting?

Is using the coal bug cheating? Is using slave alts cheating? Is using the plow bug cheating? Is using the tanning bug cheating? Is using cheap tricks to kill animals cheating?

I just don't buy the argument that botting is cheating. I don't think you can objectively define the rules of this game, let alone define what is cheating.

I don't think botting is healthy for the social aspect of the community. Botting breeds an 'easy come, easy go' ethos towards the game, this creates a lot of people who are not really invested socially in the game.

The biggest effect of botting on community, I think stems from the fact that traditionally botting is seen as unacceptable behavior that needs to be removed. I cannot think of any other online game, where botting isn't forbidden. This view point is carried over from those games into this community.
Therefore anyone who decides to play the game o'natural immediately feels a sense of injustice is occurring by letting botting continue. Regardless if it genuinely effects them negatively or not. This immediately kills the motivation for these players to invest socially in the game.

Personally I think the biggest negative effect of botting, is the influence it has on the game play mechanics. There is a fine line between the introduction of game play systems that are fun and effective while being difficult to automate, and having dull game play that only exists as a countermeasure to botting (the current curios system).

[dageir]

I just don't buy the argument that botting is cheating. I don't think you can objectively define the rules of this game, let alone define what is cheating.

So let us try to define cheating. We can turn to Kant and see what he says about it:

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law."

So let us test different behaviours according to Kants categorical imperative:

Is stealing cheating/morally unsound? Can stealing be made an universal law? What would happen if everyone kept stealing non stop?
Society would most likely break down and any survivors would live as hostile hermits. Would you consider this a good development of society?

And lets cut to the chase: Can botting be made into an universal law in this game as it is right now,and can the game be sustained over time? If everyone is basing their play on botting, the most likely outcome would be that
people who are not into botting would quit the game, because having the computer play the game for you would be utterly boring. You would however have a few remaining "players" who would be very interested in botting left.

I predict a grim future for this game unless one choose one of these paths:
1. Implement an in game bot-creation tool that is fun and entertaining that can be used by everyone and his dog. (Wasnt there a game that was mentioned on these forums that went in that direvtion? Topia? Where is Topia today?)
2. Ban bots and punish the bot users severly to allow influx of new (and old) players who actually like to play the game as it is.

[Ethan]

There is no way to make botting less desirable.

If the effort required to achieve x goal is so trivial a bot would bring you no advantage over not botting then you also do not have enough of an obstacle to provide challenge to the player. If you remove enough obstacles you are basically left with no game at all. Game is about systems and beating those systems. Nothing to bot nothing to play.
Legalized botting is getting something for nothing. It's better to have something than nothing. Something has value nothing has no value.
Fair competition against those that bot can only happen if you bot as well.
A competition between botters is only a competition of the better bots.
Playing without challenge or competition can be fun for only so long. Larpers will disagree.

Please disprove any of my assertions. You keep claiming you can make botting less appealing I bring forth that even if you do that solves fuck all. So anyone got balls enough to actually engage with my argument?

And main drop in population is lack of new blood keeping things stale. But I don't see a way out of that without turning the game into pay to win so yeah.

Not to take anything away from what you said, but what is the current competition in the game? Who has the highest Q stuff when the world reset happens?
I think there is already a lack of a challenge pathway, and a real means for players to compete with each other.