P2P plan

[Etherdrifter]

<Insert wisdom here>

[Kronicstrafe]

Still doing what? From my perspective it is not that I am dismissing any argument you're making concerning the store, it is that you're simply not presenting any! You talk about our mistakes on launch, but we admitted a bunch of them them the first thing we did, and we immediately changed a bunch of things around where we felt that the feedback we got was justified, and we have been getting better feedback since doing so. I have largely moved on from that, and am looking toward the future. I would love ideas on how to improve the store, the payment model, the free-to-play aspect, but dwelling on the past is just not a functional attitude.

My sales figures are quite adequate for the present, and are enough to motivate further development and commitment to the game, but not enough to retire. I take this as the most real, honest, and no bullshit feedback I can get that we are doing at least some things right, and I hope that we can continue to do so. I am sorry that you are not pleased with the payment model as it sits, I would love to hear what you'd find more reasonable, I do not want to be or appear dismissive of anyone (except a very select handful), but I also realize that I cannot please everyone at all times, and I am fine with all of that.

We consider the entire game -- store, platform, and everything included -- a work in progress, and always have. We will continue to wing it, try our best, fail and try again, making mistakes all along the way, and hopefully also some progress in-between.

Even if we fucked up royally it really just doesn't matter. The only thing we can ever do is pick up the pieces and move on to something better.

Hurry up and just make it a single payment with microtransactions for the whales.

[Kronicstrafe]

Why, you refuse to acknowledge any concerns over the new system and how it has been implemented, even when it's discussed politely and intelligently and defer almost all concerns as being relevant to us being reluctant to part with cash ......

But this is not true.

But you are still doing it .....

If the bottom line of those ideas, however, is "stop charging money, deliver updates for free and set up a donation account", well...

I give you things for free, provide at least minimal support for it, and you get mad when I stop doing it because you now consider our gifts your privilege...?

The bottom line remains that we have been providing the community fun for free for several years, while asking for nothing material in return, and that the simple act of ever making the game publicly available was in itself more than could have been expected of anyone.

I do understand that you have had a lot of people who are specifically unhappy about the financial aspect and think the game should be free but not all of us who are unhappy agree with that, I am one of them, not once since this has started or anywhere in the post above am I implying that .....

And, why should you, for the past seven-ish years the community has done nothing for you, not provided you with anything at all, you don't have to provide us with a single thing and certainly not even a couple of free hrs at launch, or prior to launch, for the regulars on legacy to shed a tear and say goodbye ... we are sooo ungrateful, it's shocking!

Yeah, that sounds pretty ungrateful to me.

It didn't occur to you that the people who have followed this game for years do so out of a love for the game, the community and you devs and that there would be an element of disappointment and feeling let down? Doesn't the impression of being ungrateful extend both ways in a situation where both parties feel a commitment irrelevant of which party feels more justified.

That being said, yes, perhaps some free time in the old game could have been a good idea. I'll consider that.

Thank you.

Putting the p2p bit aside for just one minute ..... for the regulars, the players that come back year after year, world after world, contribute to the game and the community Haven is not just any old game we play, we want it to do well, to grow, improve, we want this because we love it, it's where we spend our free time .....
No, we are in no way equal partners but we feel like we have an investment in it and that is as it should be, other players come and go as we do in other games but Haven is 'ours' almost as much as it is yours, whether you like it or not, lol. (You shouldn't have given us such a good game!) And it is the core members who drive the game and ultimately will push it forward.

Back to p2p .... personally I was happy that you guys planned to monetize the new version, onwards and upwards, I would love to see Haven become an established game and loved by thousands, I would have loved to have seen you guys get something back for all your hard work and effort ..... I was so excited on launch day with all the people on the forum, lol, ask Loftar ...

Then, WHAM! You come charging in with no proper planning, no concerns for your regular playing base, no adequate payment system or even for some an acceptable payment plan ..... you guys have this thing about making everything over complicated, lol ..... ( the majority of your player base are children, lol, maybe you are trying to educate them .... ) and now we are back to where we were before, in fact we are probably worse off ..... a lot of regulars have left, out of those of us that gave it a go quite a few are now slowly drifting away and when the new players get raided and killed or can't survive the harsher environment and quit like they always do, lol, what will become of Haven then?

It's heartbreaking to watch ...... so you see, it's not because we are being selfish or don't want to pay, it's because we love the game and don't want to see it fail.

Agreed.

[Kronicstrafe]

Still doing what? From my perspective it is not that I am dismissing any argument you're making concerning the store, it is that you're simply not presenting any! You talk about our mistakes on launch, but we admitted a bunch of them them the first thing we did, and we immediately changed a bunch of things around where we felt that the feedback we got was justified, and we have been getting better feedback since doing so. I have largely moved on from that, and am looking toward the future. I would love ideas on how to improve the store, the payment model, the free-to-play aspect, but dwelling on the past is just not a functional attitude.

My sales figures are quite adequate for the present, and are enough to motivate further development and commitment to the game, but not enough to retire. I take this as the most real, honest, and no bullshit feedback I can get that we are doing at least some things right, and I hope that we can continue to do so. I am sorry that you are not pleased with the payment model as it sits, I would love to hear what you'd find more reasonable, I do not want to be or appear dismissive of anyone (except a very select handful), but I also realize that I cannot please everyone at all times, and I am fine with all of that.

We consider the entire game -- store, platform, and everything included -- a work in progress, and always have. We will continue to wing it, try our best, fail and try again, making mistakes all along the way, and hopefully also some progress in-between.

Even if we fucked up royally it really just doesn't matter. The only thing we can ever do is pick up the pieces and move on to something better.

Is that some salt i detect?

[Kronicstrafe]

Still doing what? From my perspective it is not that I am dismissing any argument you're making concerning the store, it is that you're simply not presenting any! You talk about our mistakes on launch, but we admitted a bunch of them them the first thing we did, and we immediately changed a bunch of things around where we felt that the feedback we got was justified, and we have been getting better feedback since doing so. I have largely moved on from that, and am looking toward the future. I would love ideas on how to improve the store, the payment model, the free-to-play aspect, but dwelling on the past is just not a functional attitude.

My sales figures are quite adequate for the present, and are enough to motivate further development and commitment to the game, but not enough to retire. I take this as the most real, honest, and no bullshit feedback I can get that we are doing at least some things right, and I hope that we can continue to do so. I am sorry that you are not pleased with the payment model as it sits, I would love to hear what you'd find more reasonable, I do not want to be or appear dismissive of anyone (except a very select handful), but I also realize that I cannot please everyone at all times, and I am fine with all of that.

We consider the entire game -- store, platform, and everything included -- a work in progress, and always have. We will continue to wing it, try our best, fail and try again, making mistakes all along the way, and hopefully also some progress in-between.

Even if we fucked up royally it really just doesn't matter. The only thing we can ever do is pick up the pieces and move on to something better.

"The only thing we can ever do is pick up the pieces and move on to something better."

You have proven that you are a shit developer good luck with whatever else you will do. I dont understand why you wouldnt want your game to thrive, instead you make a game that sits around dicksuckers. Dont even say you are making this game for fun.

"My sales figures are quite adequate for the present, and are enough to motivate further development and commitment to the game, but not enough to retire."

Why the fuck would somone making a game for fun retire? YOU WANT MONEY AND FUCKING HELL YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW TO MAKE MONEY YOU IDIOTS. Then you just say "doh well we dont care if it fails" then you bitch at people who give reasons why it will fail. Godamnit.......

[jorb]

Why the fuck would somone making a game for fun retire? YOU WANT MONEY AND FUCKING HELL YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW TO MAKE MONEY YOU IDIOTS. Then you just say "doh well we dont care if it fails" then you bitch at people who give reasons why it will fail. Godamnit.......

That's not what I said, though.

Also, calm down. Nothing here is a big enough deal for you to get a heart attack over it. You don't like what we do, fine, ciao.

[Russaria]

I thought that was your whole point? to create that very thing, after all, such an intense direct planned out vomit and piss into everyone's face had to be for that intentional giggle and gaff purpose right? Or did you mean, "hey. is that some salt I detect"..as in Yes please? Makers our flutter to see it"...lol

I've built a game for that you may enjoy for free. For the past seven-ish years I have provided it.

"piss and vomit in everyone's face"

Do tell me more.

seriously, you've always been drugged out funny but come on, this "poor pitiful I'm so shocked and perplexed" act from you is (certainly to anyone who's been here for more than a year..lol) beyond the pale of snickers and grins. Even for the likes of you. You have people log into a paywall without any warning enough to even get a last screenshot of their work and THAT'S only the 1 initial omg. The 1 that then begins the 100's of pages of shock and circumstance and attempts to ban, hide, and clean up the past from your little brownnose mafia. your ridiculous assertions that you are some kind of indie martyr is a joke, one MORE than your professional reputation which can hardly be topped by a 10 hour Saturday Night Live marathon and on which you soley raped ANY credibility (What little was there) of when you did this ridiculous crap to people who had "As you say" played your game for 7 years straight. The audacity of someone with your reputation for both that MOUTH and your actions, lack of professionalism and care NOT A BIT of your playerbase (Other than frequent jokes and bullying you've made well use of yourself over the years) is worthy only of internet history that anyone with an ounce of personal morals makes sure NOONE ever forgets anywhere across the net (One I've been sure to attempt even if single handedly). Though you've helped me a lot yourself in that, trust me, the laughable actions of trying to milk MORE THAN AAA subscription prices for a pre alpha java game that carries your reputation with it (And all the instability and gameplay threats that carries with it, 'cause I sure would have liked a screenshot of all our work and animals but hey, it's just your playerbase...so who cares RIGHT)....is all one needs to know about "Vomit and piss". So hell yeah, I know I'm on board that train, give me that 120 a year for the knowledge I could log in any day to God knows what without warning...wait...never mind...I'm all joked out.

No one ever said anything about not paying, many donated until YOU (get it) you and your attitude and the things you did made some people who did donate STOP, that wasn't the playerbases fault. No one ever said they wouldn't pay to play, I know several people who would be doing that very thing right now had not you two brought to life every nightmare behavior we all thought was in your core but didn't want to believe, to reality...in just one day's log out and log in. 10$ a month? There's a reason why everyone thought it was a joke. 15$ for a last access and screenshot of your work without warning? limited "playtime"?..lol You aren't fooling anyone with that particular Linda Ronstat song. You know exactly what you're doing and why you did it. There's nothing to "pity" except the players.

Does that fulfill your "tell me more" instructions?

[Gotohellcadz]

What makes me curious is why jorbtar has been dodging the idea of putting hnh on steam, possibly because they themselves know the current game state and payment model would be crushed with negativity by the steam community?

[borka]

Practically no one on the old one.

gj ...

... is that some salt I detect?

nope it's just some sweet blood dripping still from my butt *

Seriously - i think you did real fine with the various F2P, P2P options with 2 exceptions:

1. Rushing release but not having alternative payment options straight away - it was often enough mentioned when it comes to donations -( not a smart biz plan i'd say )

2. connecting le"gaga"cy with hafen payment (account verification) instead of seperating payments for both and to the worst not even mention it anywhere (i.e. Inner Party) before**

* **
I rented a server for new hafen wiki, started a domain registration ... later on the haven wiki and domain should have been transfered (to take the burden from spiff) ...
also a file server for custom clients, mods and stuff ... all paid a year in advance from my own working poor low income ... and you know the prices it costs at Hetzner ...

plus a year silver sub for hafen

3 accounts of my own for haven plus 3 shared accounts with much better crafter skills than mine (from guys that stopped playing a while ago) for haven to keep my playstyle which is 6x15 $, plus prolly a bit to help my mates play on haven with me too ...

you can imagine how much i feel the tip of your boots ... besides not being enabled to P2P ... but anyways no pain no gain ... i set up a deadline to you for myself ... that deadline went (all our haven animals starved now and a whole bunch of dutch and germanspeaking longtime players raised their middlefinger and left) ... so i cut the crap aswell and the money saved will be well spent on a neat graphic card and some video games ...

While i still favour haven KISS 2D i admire what you both did and are doing with hafen and really wish you well ...
cheers

[jorb]

I would read your post, Russaria, but it is just a bunch of foaming-at-the mouth drivel, with an abysmal lack of newlines making the whole thing unreadable, so I won't.