99% of PVP/permadeath woes are an onboarding issue

[jorb]

Bruh, you got that backwards. I catapulted one of his alts to the dome, and won the engagement.

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Then said it was rly fun on stream and proceeded to nerf siege so hard the next patch that nobody else can ever have that fun again

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I accuse you guys of being incapable of learning from your failures a lot, but now I think about it you're also incapable of learning from your success

It was fun/itense, but also I found it to be a too drawn out affair, and I didn't like that the game "forced" me to nolife more or less around the clock for several days or w/e. I think the current system is one of the more design wise interesting ones in that you have to put out a general challenge to a whole province before sieging individual targets in it.

[SnuggleSnail]

ye if you make something so bad that nobody interacts with it u can just pretend the lack of criticism means it's good

idk how to tell u this buddy but ur new system actually requires significantly more no lifing from both the attacker and defender it's just nobody fucking touches it anymore because it sucks ass

[Zentetsuken]

idk how to tell u this

*proceeds to tell you this*

[vatas]

While this threadmostly about very basics like even knowing that PvP exists in the first place, and that you should run away, before even trying to teach exactly how to run to safety. But still, similar principle applies to siege. Many people probably don't know first thing about the exact mechanics.

Snail has previously counter-complained that certain group of people who cried about losing their village (siege only has to succeed once etc.) built a grand total of three Archery Towers, despite having something like a dozen people and fields of fibre crops. By contrast, they allegedly spent multiple man-hours crying for help in the DIscords and later complaining about the siege being "broken."
Almost everything that Snail says should be taken by a grain of salt, but unfortunately I found this scenario believable. If those first three Archery Towers were simply taken out by a Catapult, a reasonable conclusion might be that Catapult > Archery Tower, we can't do anything. When in reality, Archery Towers are much cheaper than Catapult. While Archery Towers decay over time, Catapults take damage every time they launch a projectile (requiring supplies of bone glue and timegate after repair). Catapults have to be operated by a character that has Siegecraft, while Archery Towers fire automatically on cooldown, as long as they're stocked with arrows.
In a prolonged battle of attrition, on paper, almost everything favors the defender. But in practice, unless the besieged village has someone who already knows what to, knows someone to ask for advice - the defender has to jump through following loops to even try:
Knowing that the Wiki exists at all. Noticing if it's completely outdated. Recognizing if whoever wrote it had the faintest idea how that stuff actually works.

Without going to all the embarrassing details about the siege Jorb was involved in, a good analogy to explain the impact it had is the following analogy:
Imagine there's a bunch of complete noobs playing DOTA 2, but for some reason it's also a high-profile showmatch. Something seemingly silly/stupid happens. Any pro-player (or even many casuals who've actually figured out how to play the game) can see that obviously, it happened because the players are noobs. But then the developer sees the general audience reaction and rushes in to change the game to address it.
To be fair to the developer, maybe the noobs ran into something that's arguably "bad friction" like an item description being vague/unclear or even outright misleading. Changing that would probably be a good idea, and if pro-players objected, it would be justified to think they're blatantly gatekeeping. However if the problem really is something stupid like "nobody is lasthitting" - the last thing you should do is to reduce gold from lasthitting, and increase passive gold gain, to "reduce the gap between low- and high-skilled players."
(Encouraging to last hit is actually one of the things DOTA 2 does rather well. There's a LH/D counter right below the K/D/A and last-hitting has audiovisible feedback with the gold spilling out from the creep. Note that this has been inherited from the original Warcraft 3.)

[ZamAlex]

... While Archery Towers decay over time, Catapults take damage every time they launch a projectile (requiring supplies of bone glue and timegate after repair). Catapults have to be operated by a character that has Siegecraft, while Archery Towers fire automatically on cooldown, as long as they're stocked with arrows...

Little detail that defenders can(and must) build their Catapults too, on top of Archery Towers. Charters Stones are not dissabled during siege process, so defenders can get same amount resources as attackers. And you don't need to be around as defender all the time to guard siege weapons, just don't forget to do anything lol. 90% of sieges are sucessful only coz defenders are just gave up, 5% coz flaws at base structure, that make it very hard to defend at specific angle, and only 5% coz attackers just overwhelm with amount of people or resources.

[Halbertz]

But in practice, unless the besieged village has someone who already knows what to, knows someone to ask for advice

What's even funnier is that the number of people who know exactly what to do in a siege situation can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Even within factions (and "factions"), people have to invite someone like Snail if they're serious about sieging someone.
And this is not surprising: despite all the whining, sieges are incredibly rare, and their mechanics (due to all the whining) change frequently. So finding someone who understands anything about this stuff these days is a real quest.

[SnuggleSnail]

if the current system were enjoyable enough for anybody to actually want to interact with it the meta would be waiting until 2 minutes before the thingpeace expires, building your shit, then making sure the defenders can't challenge the thingpeace again to build catapults. Then repeating that ~78 hour cycle for every layer of wall they have (lmao)

but also not that because there's 3 unrelated and reported for over a year bugs that make siege actually impossible if the defends knows them

Even talking about that is just bait, tho. The reason siege can never be good is because every year jorb decides to change the genre of the game. "Oh no, you gotta no life a bit if you get sieged" as if that would be a problem for main PVP villages with like 20-50 members

Like, this retard knows he could've posted coords+1 screenshot of a siege on discord and somebody would've come to push vata's shit in, right?

[Fostik]

When in reality, Archery Towers are much cheaper than Catapult. While Archery Towers decay over time, Catapults take damage every time they launch a projectile (requiring supplies of bone glue and timegate after repair). Catapults have to be operated by a character that has Siegecraft, while Archery Towers fire automatically on cooldown, as long as they're stocked with arrows.

That sounds good on paper, but in reality it's not like that at all.
Catapults has bigger range, firing 2 simultaneously against 1 tower insta kills it. There was a way to start repair of tower after first rock hits and before second rock lands, so that it'll survive double hit, but that was fixed by devs, which is a huge buff for anyone sieging.
Distance between towers has to be maintained, you can only build so much. Destroying tower leaves rubble that doesn't allow to rebuild it or build other tower close to it.
Towers do pretty small damage that can be tanked and repaired while pair of other catapults cleaning defenses.

In my opinion if you reserve to tower defenses you won't lose only in case sieging party doesn't know shit about siege.
And if line of towers is build first, it's more likely sieging party will have advantage to defer ram movement and simply build catapults to clean them up after 1 hour cooldown, only then to start moving ram without defending side having ability to do anything.

[SnuggleSnail]

Proving Vatas' point about things being complicated, and things changing so frequently that nobody knows what's going on by getting the timers wrong by enough that it would lose you a siege.

You're kindof on point, though. You can sorta make plays with archery towers, but nobody does that. Their design is ass. Building towers that will extend the siege 8 hours without changing the outcome is unironically just griefing, but nobody cares because the people who want PVP to be fun are a tiny minority by now

[MightySheep]

Nobody knowing how siege works is funny though

This world I built a ram outside a wall and the guy inside panicked, went around loading all his most valuable stuff into a cupboard and ran out to the thingwall where I happened to be sat

The ram couldve been killed with 1 archery tower and I wasnt planning to camp 24h for some dumb hermit so it couldve been hand bashed too

I think its necessary to cull these ppl who wanna pretend haven isnt a pvp game that way they whine less on forum. Clearly judging by this forum were not doing a good enough job and we need more mechanics to abuse