yearly incoherent QoL requests, PVP edition

[Thuzzy]

I'm saying that the reason you're not being attacked isn't because tracking is ineffective—it's because you'd just run away once located.

[SnuggleSnail]

Eh, feels like a very absolutist cringe take. Maybe you're not willing to try something with less than a 100% success rate, but others will. Maybe I'm good enough to usually get away, but others aren't.

Right now I literally afk in snekkjas on 3-5 characters at once in murderous rage and go garden IRL with a wireless headset on then run inside when I hear the aggro sound. I think the game should probably be dangerous enough for me that I don't feel comfortable doing that, and enabling people with a life to track criminals seems basically mandatory for that.

[Thuzzy]

I think the game should probably be dangerous enough for me that I don't feel comfortable doing that, and enabling people with a life to track criminals seems basically mandatory for that.

For the game to be more dangerous speed buffs would need to be less effective, or more catchup mechanics for the chaser need to be introduced. While I agree that it could be improved, I personally never had any difficulties with tracking

[Archiplex]

If you'd like to pick a single bullet point I'd be happy to explain why you're wrong

I'll bite

First: A huge chunk of these are not "QoL", they push a goal you like (and maybe or maybe not that goal is good, dunno, don't care), but have nothing to do with the quality of life of entering/exiting pvp, and im not sure I agree with slapping them in with everything else as if they were simple universally agreed upon qol changes. I'll target the big ones I disagree with.

Free thingwall travel directly to any challenged thingwall from any other thingwall

I get the idea is to encourage pvp, but if anyone in the world could travel anywhere else in the world for pvp, you'd have way more opportunistic giga gangbangs and I'm not entirely sure that's fun or interesting. I'm still in favor of less fast travel than more, or at the least some sort of additional cost to the extra-long-range fast travel. I think there's a place for small scale 'scuffed' low level pvp in the world, but the existence of fast travel in the way that it exists eliminates it (+ the rise of gigafactions over time, but thats a different topic).

Make challenging a thingwall require murderous rage be active, but only if the above 1 happens as well
Make challenging a thingwall redhand you, but only if the above happen as well 2 else it will be pointless
Raise base grievous damage to 50%

None of these are to make pvp more 'engaging' nor raise it's quality of life: the goal is to make it more possible for people to die. I understand a big argument of yours over time is that not enough high level pvpers die enough in combat, but I'd like to hear a proper reasoning as to why you think this discourages big pvp. You also argue that this is 'bad' for newbies but... I don't really think it is? Faction-scale autism is on a whole nother level and even if a top level pvper like you died 4 or 5 times in a row, that still doesn't close the gap. Factions have the resources to churn out a baseline level of pvp combatant, which is already far above what any sprucecaps can deal with as well as any other mid-tier village can deal with usually. Not only that but it arguably impacts lower tier players MORE because it's still possible to dodge deaths via cheesing mechanics (yes I will always consider bodyblocking people to chip them down with low quality swords for a big cleave as a cheese mechanic that shouldn't exist, the system is clearly meant to make death a baseline level of difficult, and just because you can bypass it and jorbtar haven't bothered to do anything doesn't mean it's the accepted norm.)
Tl;dr: I'm just not sold on the idea that "more death" (both for big and small players) is good for the health of the game nor for the fun of pvp.

Raise aggro range to be render distance (if you do this you have to raise raw hide dist too or things will be fucked) < big 1 for tracking outlaws

This one is a huge 'hell fucking no' so long as visitor gates work the way they do. Yes it'll help you kill veterans, but see above: If we had some sort of mechanic that allowed people to escape a combat mid-combat and erased how safepalis work, then yeah sure, but we don't and bandaid solution upon bandaid solution is lame. You want running to be the main skill determination for whether someone can escape combat or not, I think the game needs to officially include some sort of mechanic to be played around to escape combat (I think DDDD or something made a suggestion about dugouts being used to 'teleport' or something on a long cooldown, that was based and a good direction to go in.) Do the rest first, then do something like this.

Slow anybody in aggro on a rowboat/snekkja/knarr/wagon/sleigh/sled to the speed of a dugout/coracle < big 1 for tracking outlaws

Mixed feelings. Boat pvp is lame as hell and the main use of this is to allow people not in combat (the chasers, for example, can break combat way more easily than the chasee) to follow up on attacks. Probably not the way to go, I'd rather some sort of 'contested waters' type beat where if pvp is detected in a large region of water, *everyone* in that region is slowed down.
Add "boats cannot be bashed if someone is riding it" and I'll happily agree to anything related to boat pvp being made easier to down people though.

Remove normal gates < big 1 for tracking outlaws
If not remove normal gates, make glass keys not work on gates

This is "Remove safepalis", again meant to encourage more deaths. I already stated above why I don't think removing safepalis without adding other measures to escape combat is a good idea.

Some stats on scent's tooltips, like perp's name if memoed, province they're in, maybe even current health if you wanna get REALLY spicy

I'd actually go further and do some sort of voodoo type beat where you compare your stats to the person who left behind the scent, maybe through some sort of ritual, and maybe only possible at the location the scents were dropped (so you cant pass it around too easily or w/e, who cares). I think someone (DDD? You?) made a suggestion about some sort of item or buff you can use that equalizes your stats slightly if you are fighting someone you have scents of, that would also be a neat little mechanic to encourage fighting outlaws, but also probably not enough due to how outlaw hunting works-- just something to add down the line if we get outlaw hunting into a healthy spot.
I still really like the idea of being able to challenge a criminal to a "1v1 me bro" type challenge and if they refuse they get some major debuff that lasts for a while, but I didn't like how jorb presented his idea.

AND SINCE I KNOW YOU HATE MY WORDWALLS here's a summary

If you want to encourage pvp, the route isn't to make shit more deadly. The route is to make the grind easier for all players involved (increase product yields across the board, increase quality raising variables across the board, make it easier for EVERYONE to hit hq things and thus high stat numbers), to rework the combat system into something less completely mindbending for new players to try and learn (big ask, I know.). Provide a way for players who are interested and 'okay' at the game to be able to at least semi-compete with the giga autists, and bam, you'll have more pvp. If we're at the point where more players can readily access that type of content, then we can start being fine with killing more people too, and then i'm 100% all in on the "make pvp more dangerous". (P.s this is why i made that giant ass suggestion about turning the game into a more wipe-based environment instead of aiming for the perpetual server, just make the game faster and make it simple to hit extremely high stats all around.)

[SnuggleSnail]

I didn't rly read that except the TL;DR and not to be dismissive but I think the fact your whole shtick seems to be "more death not good, actually" is undermined by you unknowingly agreeing with showing stats/HP on scents when that is by far the most deadly thing I suggested that even I'm iffy about.

Killing hermits is based. Every single one of you subhumans deserves death. However, in my opinion it is very cringe to kill hermits from an ivory tower of invulnerability avoiding all conflict with real people, and that is the behavior heavily encouraged by the game's mechanics. The primary beneficiaries of free escapes are griefers who don't want to ever actually be in danger. The free escapes are not good for the hermits, as if you want to kill random hermits you just put yourself in situations where the free escapes are not applicable.

If you want to stab people in the neck and steal their pants you should need to be willing to risk somebody stabbing you in the neck and stealing your pants.

[scouter4]

very bad ideas, will ruin the game

[animary]

"Every single one of you subhumans deserves death."

Why?

Because we do not play the way you do?

The move to Steam is undermined by rampant PvP; word gets out, "don't waste your time on Haven, other players will kill you before you even get settled". I propose a system that allows all those so inclined to fight to their heart's content while allowing others to run away - quite simply, allow you to hearth home from attack by another player, but not by animals. The person running away is penalized because the rest of their day is shot (they'd be foolish to come back out and continue whatever they were doing), but if you want to fight, just stand your ground. Perhaps an "attack hearth" could only be used once a day, and/or have a major energy/stamina cost.

[Archiplex]

I didn't rly read that except the TL;DR and not to be dismissive but I think the fact your whole shtick seems to be "more death not good, actually" is undermined by you unknowingly agreeing with showing stats/HP on scents when that is by far the most deadly thing I suggested that even I'm iffy about.

Killing hermits is based. Every single one of you subhumans deserves death. However, in my opinion it is very cringe to kill hermits from an ivory tower of invulnerability avoiding all conflict with real people, and that is the behavior heavily encouraged by the game's mechanics. The primary beneficiaries of free escapes are griefers who don't want to ever actually be in danger. The free escapes are not good for the hermits, as if you want to kill random hermits you just put yourself in situations where the free escapes are not applicable.

If you want to stab people in the neck and steal their pants you should need to be willing to risk somebody stabbing you in the neck and stealing your pants.

Actually Im moreso interested in the stats only, not the health, though im not too sure how that entirely undermines my points...

Killing anyone is based, I don't think killers are griefers. I actually fully agree that, in concept, the game would be 10000% better if we could encourage more players to be in the state to fight and defend themselves/participate in battles. I also agree and like the fact some mechanics encourage it: I just don't think that the game is in a state that it should be encouraging such (deadly) pvp, specifically because the ivory tower you're talking about exists. I don't want the game to be ruled by some higher court of players that have cemented themselves in exploits/abusing mechanics/bots/etc become the class of players that are allowed to fight back, whereas everyone else just sits around and prays they can kill the people that would otherwise kill them, I want hermits to be able to at least kind-of compete.

Ideally, there is no ivory tower and the skill floor to "i can pvp people" should be much, much lower. In a situation like that, hell yeah to literally every pro-pvp suggestion you've made (unironically). But I think adding those changes at all is a net negative even if some pvpers start suffering from deaths as the current system exists. I know your point is "Well, if these pvpers get away with killing all the time, then nobody will ever punish them!", my response to that is "Being punished won't actually stop them because the typical alt factions can churn out on a daily can already beat the ass of any hermit". I don't want that minimum alt for factions to be weaker/harder to churn out, I want everyone to be able to churn such things out without the same investment needed (this factors into anti-bot suggestions that make the game easier for everyone involved, as opposed to try to stop bots)

I don't believe in 'griefers' or a pve server fwiw, so don't lump me in with that crowd.

[SnuggleSnail]

I would like the game to be easier for normal people in terms of quality/stats/learning PVP, too. If you go through my post history that's unironically what like 50% of the words I've ever written have been about.

Seems unrelated to this topic, though. Even perfect skill/stat parity were achieved, hell, even if everybody was way better still nobody would track me. The effort:reward is too bad. It should be realistic for a normal person with a job to dunk on outlaws, but with this system nobody with a life is going to track me ever even if they massively outskill/outstat me.

[SpacePig]

Okay, well that's seven things but I don't see you as a retard so I will do the cringe 14 quote replies 27 tangents bullshit for 1 post.

> bigger aggro range
In and of itself it will not have much on an effect. To you escape need to either hearth behind something that blocks line of sight, get to a pali, or get to a boat. A higher aggro range has a negligible effect on all of these methods for reasons obvious enough I assume I don't need to explain?

We can simply remove the combat mode, completely, and the agro that prevents us from passing through doors.
What does this agro even mean - that I can't run away or leave the game because they want to kill or rob me?
I don't need that, thanks.
Run up and poke them with your stick if you dare.
And we also need to reduce the running speed for each piece of armor by 5%, and for heavy weapons by 10%. This is necessary so that gankers can't wear heavy weapons and armor at all, and even more so catch up with naked people in them. Wear armor only during a siege, and if you want to run away from a battle or swim across a river - strip naked, like a cowardly bum should.