Removing tradeable sub tokens and hats

[azrid]

I think it's sad if we've gotten to a point where we're justifying real money trading in H&H by saying Activsion does it too. A big part of Havens appeal was being an antithesis to the AAA game industry. Where you have this small awesome indie duo just going its own way entirely. And now we are setting the bar here?

Like Haven is known even outside of its core audience for things like leather taking a long time to make and being an intricate process. Why was it made that way? Because real leather takes time and the system is some kind of attempt at a light simulation of leathermaking moreso than whats seen in your average MMO. That's the immersion that's being hurt by this RMT. Not because tokens break the game with the advantage gained but because it devalues the games own systems by making the fastest and most ideal way of progressing for smaller/new groups to fork out some real moneys and content skip.

AAA game companies have finance guys who set goals for income which has pushed really predatory things into modern games.
Not all the monetization ideas that come from these people are bad though. They are experts for a reason.
There are a lot of loved f2p mmos that use this token model and it just works.
Its also easy to be idealistic when you are the customer not the developer.

I still think your idea is not implementable as it is right now.
I think you could make it more attractive for all sides without making big compromises but I'm not here to derail your thread or do the thinking for you.

[spiritualatom]

AAA game companies have finance guys who set goals for income which has pushed really predatory things into modern games.
Not all the monetization ideas that come from these people are bad though. They are experts for a reason.
There are a lot of loved f2p mmos that use this token model and it just works.
Its also easy to be idealistic when you are the customer not the developer.

I still think your idea is not implementable as it is right now.
I think you could make it more attractive for all sides without making big compromises but I'm not here to derail your thread or do the thinking for you.

Ok but a pay to win token in a sandbox like Haven is borderline predatory and again not something that should be applauded because other triple As does it. I feel like there's been a lot of points made in this thread about why it's harmful that you haven't responded to or engaged with. So saying it works in other MMOs is like a very empty statement when this thread is about the specifics of how it ISNT working in Haven. And honestly my experts on this are Jorb and Loftar over any MMO CEO, even though I disagree with them on this particular issue I think the game is an amazing piece of work.

So if you think an alternative iron man server is inherently not possible because people won't play it, and it's not possible to touch the main branch because of the sub token investment you guys have done.. Then yeah you've created a narrative where nothing is possible I guess. But that's not the reality I think. There is an awful lot of potential both in making it possible to dump tokens into something non-tradeable; maybe gametime (the reason for sub tokens in public communication outwards right) and then their eventual removal on main branch. Or an iron made mode that I gave you the outlines for earlier right, and the specifics of that mode can be discussed but I think a lot of people value hardcore non-p2w playstyles in the community and that's why they gravitated to this game.

I mean both of these options are possible to do but again it first comes down to an acknowledgement that seems to be lacking on your part that current situation is just straight up bad for the game.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

However; buying a subscription token as a new player. Then TPing to a market to buy 200q+ tools and bypassing content... Is that the kind of play we're looking to encourage with localizing resources and encouraging "trade"?

New players should, for their own benefit, learn the game without participating in the token economy.
However, the fact that a new player may ruin their own experience (through their own choice) probably isn't enough to negate the benefits of a token economy.
Items in Haven become worth very little as the world progresses - Tokens are the only means to store wealth without it being devalued from hyperinflation, and the only way to transfer wealth between worlds.

If the system were removed, it would just be replaced with RMT. Which still exists, but at least much of it is siphoned to the devs.
It also provides players from very poor countries with low wages IRL a way to fund their subscriptions, if they so choose.

[Regulus2424]

ngl I'd play on that iron man server.. if I could pay for it with tokens

[MightySheep]

if they remove sub token and you wanna buy all end game gear for irl money Im fairly certain youd find sellers

also even if they remove sub token, its still not gonna be the SSF iron man game you want, just replace sub token with world resources or food or whatever, you still gonna be going straight to market to buy all the highest ql gear

I made 40 token this world from nothing but pvp loot. Its honestly confusing af to me how many whales this game have that tokens are this inflated and easy to farm, u guys are wagey as fuck

[spiritualatom]

if they remove sub token and you wanna buy all end game gear for irl money Im fairly certain youd find sellers

also even if they remove sub token, its still not gonna be the SSF iron man game you want, just replace sub token with world resources or food or whatever, you still gonna be going straight to market to buy all the highest ql gear

I made 40 token this world from nothing but pvp loot. Its honestly confusing af to me how many whales this game have that tokens are this inflated and easy to farm, u guys are wagey as fuck

Obviously you'd find sellers if you wanna RMT still on an ironman server, but like let's be real how many people sign up for a server like this, maybe even pay extra sub for it, then goes through hoops to Paypal someone? At that point you might as well play on current servers where there's dev supported p2w.
Also people reverting to trading with actual resources for actual things exclusively is kinda the ideal situation I'd say. So if that's the outcome then great.

It's really cool you made money on pvp though wp Proud of you!

[spiritualatom]

However; buying a subscription token as a new player. Then TPing to a market to buy 200q+ tools and bypassing content... Is that the kind of play we're looking to encourage with localizing resources and encouraging "trade"?

New players should, for their own benefit, learn the game without participating in the token economy.
However, the fact that a new player may ruin their own experience (through their own choice) probably isn't enough to negate the benefits of a token economy.
Items in Haven become worth very little as the world progresses - Tokens are the only means to store wealth without it being devalued from hyperinflation, and the only way to transfer wealth between worlds.

If the system were removed, it would just be replaced with RMT. Which still exists, but at least much of it is siphoned to the devs.
It also provides players from very poor countries with low wages IRL a way to fund their subscriptions, if they so choose.

Why shouldn't everyone go through the game without benefiting from the token economy though? What's the in-game benefit to certain people bypassing content through real money?
"The only real way to transfer wealth between worlds" I still don't get this idea that players should be able to do this. Why do you feel you should be able to transfer wealth onto "fresh" worlds? Isn't the point a reset where everyone starts on the same baseline?

Yeah let's touch on the subject of people from second and third world. Isn't just straight up RMT the best for them? Like if we really care about the impoverished people in this world shouldn't we just straight up allow cash for resource trading? That would help them way more than this current system no? I don't know, I find resorting to this sympathy for the impoverished all of a sudden nice but also very weird when discussing these topics. Because I've seen it reoccur in threads as a defense for p2w. How substantial is the subtoken support for poor people?
Let's just go straight to paying gold farms in China and bypass Jorb and Loftar, then we'd really be helping no?

[azrid]

Ok but a pay to win token in a sandbox like Haven is borderline predatory and again not something that should be applauded because other triple As does it. I feel like there's been a lot of points made in this thread about why it's harmful that you haven't responded to or engaged with. So saying it works in other MMOs is like a very empty statement when this thread is about the specifics of how it ISNT working in Haven. And honestly my experts on this are Jorb and Loftar over any MMO CEO, even though I disagree with them on this particular issue I think the game is an amazing piece of work.

The point was not everything triple A does is bad and predatory. The token is one of the systems thats good and has worked out in bridging the gap between rightful compensation for devs vs playability for the customer.
I think the players who are unable to stomach a token system are a very small minority.
Remember the more people that get invested into token system also means they are more likely to be recurring players as to not lose value of their investment.

So if you think an alternative iron man server is inherently not possible because people won't play it, and it's not possible to touch the main branch because of the sub token investment you guys have done.. Then yeah you've created a narrative where nothing is possible I guess.

Change is possible but not how its being proposed.
You are not even proposing an iron man mode but just a regular server where theres no tradeable tokens or hats.

This is iron man and unless you are gonna make a thread proposing the changes needed to make this possible I don't think your current idea is ever going to be implemented by jorb and loftar.

There is an awful lot of potential both in making it possible to dump tokens into something non-tradeable; maybe gametime

This is the first real idea that could be implemented and I'd love to see how it plays out.

Or an iron made mode that I gave you the outlines for earlier right, and the specifics of that mode can be discussed but I think a lot of people value hardcore non-p2w playstyles in the community and that's why they gravitated to this game.

The discussion should be about all the specifics you have in your head to make this server possible.
Please go more in depth on this so we can see if theres something there that can actually become reality.
The hardcore non p2w can only work once you tell us your idea on how to enforce ironman rules I showed you on the screenshot.

acknowledgement that seems to be lacking on your part that current situation is just straight up bad for the game.

That's because we don't agree fully on this point.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

"The only real way to transfer wealth between worlds" I still don't get this idea that players should be able to do this. Why do you feel you should be able to transfer wealth onto "fresh" worlds?

Because there are some players (not I) who are motivated by the accumulation of wealth, and they would be overcome by the feeling of meaningless and quit if they were unable to feel like they were able to continue to accumulate wealth in the long term.

If it weren't for the other - aforementioned - reasons, perhaps that would not be justification enough for the token economy. But let's be real, what you're really experiencing is cognitive discomfort that other people can turn IRL money into game progress and thereby overtake you. You want it to be disallowed, despite the fact that it would happen anyway, because you'd feel better that it was at least against the rules.

I don't think your cognitive discomfort overcomes the myriad of reasons that favor of the token economy. But it's absolutely your right to feel bad about it.

[spiritualatom]

This is the first real idea that could be implemented and I'd love to see how it plays out.

I mean I'm not a gamedev and I'm not going to spend a lot of time writing up server rule ideas for you to say "Na nobody will play dat".
There's a plethora of "hardcore" rules that could be implemented on a server like this with regards to the progression of time, limits on TPing, limits on discovery sharing, LP gain etc. but the point of this is thread isn't to outline an ironman server in every detail that I'm sure a lot of people who share my base view on p2w would still have different takes on. An ironman server is to me only interesting insofar as it allows players to opt out of RMT/P2W mechanics for a monthly/base sum that allows devs to still monetize it.

That's because we don't agree fully on this point.

Disagreement is all good. But I find it amazing if you don't see the issues with current model that people have brought up.
And how you can describe the token system as a balanced and fair payment model also amaze me.

Let's say two players decide to start playing seperately right now on 16.1. They spawn in the same area and have to deal with each other. That's the core premise of Haven and Hearth right? It's inherently social and you can choose how to deal with others including (famously) through PvP. So one player is progressing through the game systems "normally" meaning he's farming, mining when able to, maybe trading for low tier items with other players he meets.
The other players buys a sub token or two and TPs to one of the prominent sub-token-markets. He decks himself out and gets super ahead. So super ahead that even if the first player grinds for months in a small group he probably won't be close. And of course I don't have to fill in everything here, he can with this advantage contest the other players existence in the game etc etc. I'm very much in the pro pvp camp btw but this guy magically spawning this advantage with his credit card just sucks. And I think it detracts from the games integrity so both lose out in this example.
It's about how this doesn't just come down to choosing or not choosing to content skip personally. Or just get real and play ironman. No, the monetization fundamentally affects the game world. The game is so inherently social that the optimal path (for a new player that's P2W) very quickly becomes the only path.

I really struggle to see how this is a "balanced" approach. It's heavy handed disruption of the whole of MMO and low level PvP experience (which is a huge portion of the player base.) There must be a thousand approaches more balanced than this. Non-tradeable cosmetics like a lot of triple As do successfully? Pay for character slots? Anything??