Removing tradeable sub tokens and hats

[azrid]

You leave out something very important.
In your ideal world there is still trading which allows going to a market anyway and buying gear and wrecking your neighbor.
When you keep in markets and trading nothing will change about the optimal gameplay for a noob.
You just have to boat around gathering localized resources which most of these p2win players are too lazy to do which means they will spend real money to buy from traders.
Just fyi buying for real money is much cheaper than buying for legal tokens.
RMT token prices are about half of what real store price offers if you buy the biggest token bundle and 3 times lower if you were to buy a single token.
Good job making p2win cheaper!

If you fail to address the need for removal of markets and trading items between players your idea is not doable.
Are you starting to get it?

[Frogg]

Ironman server would mean you can't trade at all. You can't use anything that was not produced by your character.
You couldn't RMT because other players can't use your stuff (except destroying it maybe). Cash shop items would be account-bound on purchase.

[Händler]

I think it's a fair plea for them to remove any source of income from the game. And also upgrade the server hardware, so stability normalizes.

[Mysia]

x

50 bucks paypal whoever kill him bring me his skull
jk
im not buying shit from market why care what other people do. kill them and take their shit they bought for real money, turn around sell it for irl money, smoke their tears and get high af how twisted and sadistic omg i am so sorry x.x how about we all work together and build a wunderful community of furry faggots and weaboos. oh wait xD just give up tom and play for urself

[spiritualatom]

You leave out something very important.
In your ideal world there is still trading which allows going to a market anyway and buying gear and wrecking your neighbor.
When you keep in markets and trading nothing will change about the optimal gameplay for a noob.
You just have to boat around gathering localized resources which most of these p2win players are too lazy to do which means they will spend real money to buy from traders.
Just fyi buying for real money is much cheaper than buying for legal tokens.
RMT token prices are about half of what real store price offers if you buy the biggest token bundle and 3 times lower if you were to buy a single token.
Good job making p2win cheaper!

If you fail to address the need for removal of markets and trading items between players your idea is not doable.
Are you starting to get it?

No I don't leave that out of it at all. The fact that RMT will still be present has been a prominent topic throughout this thread. So it's not a new thought you're bringing here. The fact is though that removing developer supported RMT is a step in the right direction. It will make it less common and convenient to RMT, it will make it more fringe and looked down upon. RMT will always happen, it happens much more now because its dev supported. I don't think we should encourage more RMT which the current model does. As explained in my previous example that highlights problems with current system (which you again did not engage with whatsoever) when buying tokens becomes the meta for smaller groups and new players we have a real problem. In a social PVP based MMO like Haven there is no alternative to content skipping several months, when the alternative can be getting smoked. If you look at 16.1 now there are mega factions, but absolute majority of players are smaller villages/hermits/etc. You'll always be at a disadvantage to the largest faction ofc, but I'm saying this negatively impacts the interactions between the smaller groups the most. And they are the main paying group of this game.

[Audiosmurf]

I think the problem is that autistics are getting hung up on the "iron man" phrasing, assuming everyone is talking about self-drop only no trading, and then running with that without thinking about it for more than 2 seconds

[spiritualatom]

But let's be real, what you're really experiencing is cognitive discomfort that other people can turn IRL money into game progress and thereby overtake you. You want it to be disallowed, despite the fact that it would happen anyway, because you'd feel better that it was at least against the rules.

I don't think your cognitive discomfort overcomes the myriad of reasons that favor of the token economy. But it's absolutely your right to feel bad about it.

Very interesting psychological takes and speculations into my motivations. I mean sure man it's cognitive discomfort in the sense that you can call disagreeing with a mechanic that. But let's be real and at least acknowledge this isn't about me being afraid of people outprogressing, I think I've given a pretty clear account about my motivations for talking about this. So i've been making a broader point that I think this monetization is unhealthy for the game and made some pretty clear arguments why it detracts from the sandbox.
Then of course you can argue that the cognitive comfort of token hoarders should be put before the health of the game. I don't think it should. I think it's bad game design that certain players who choose one kind of activity over the others should be able to keep their store bought tokens and spawn in with an advantage.

And again my key point is when the negative impact is so obvious. Why not look into other ways to monetize? Non-tradeable cosmetics, character slots etc. There's so many games doing well currently without dev supported RMT/token economies. And I feel that an uncompromising sandbox indie game like H&H should be the last to embrace these kinds of practices.

[spiritualatom]

I think the problem is that autistics are getting hung up on the "iron man" phrasing, assuming everyone is talking about self-drop only no trading, and then running with that without thinking about it for more than 2 seconds

Yeah I agree not to get hung up on the ironman thing. Some kind of parallel server with an alternative monetization practice is the most important thing. And is one of several solutions to this. It can for sure deviate from the "Ironman" concept seen in other MMOs.

[Dawidio123]

From dev perspective 2 servers are already a shitshow as we have seen this time around, and you're pitching another server that will bring in less revenue by design unless we're pitching some other forms of monetization.

This game can be as ironman as you want it to be, you don't have to ever buy tokens, trade, or even interact with other players other than the few random times you get ganked once in a blue moon with how big the map is. If you cannot honor the ironman rules without it being set in stone you don't really want that experience, why would an ironman care about others experience if they don't interact with them (oh i don't like this experience so we should have a server that forces it on everyone there just so i can feel like it's fair). If you think traders who now sell for tokens will suddenly care about other stuff with tokens removed that's not how its gonna go lemme tell ya.

[spiritualatom]

From dev perspective 2 servers are already a shitshow as we have seen this time around, and you're pitching another server that will bring in less revenue by design unless we're pitching some other forms of monetization.

This game can be as ironman as you want it to be, you don't have to ever buy tokens, trade, or even interact with other players other than the few random times you get ganked once in a blue moon with how big the map is. If you cannot honor the ironman rules without it being set in stone you don't really want that experience, why would an ironman care about others experience if they don't interact with them (oh i don't like this experience so we should have a server that forces it on everyone there just so i can feel like it's fair). If you think traders who now sell for tokens will suddenly care about other stuff with tokens removed that's not how its gonna go lemme tell ya.

The 16/16.1 set up is not permanent. So when current cycle is done swap one of them out for a sub based non-p2w server?

Yeah all this would be an easy fix if this was a thread about how we should not trade and that iron man is good.
If you try and reread it's about the social aspects of Haven and also the sense of slow but meaningful progression being made worse by p2w sub tokens. The majority of players are not in large factions min-maxing quality they are somewhere in the middle tiers of progression. I don't know why it seems so hard to get that being able to pay to bypass that progression hollows it out?
Another point having been made too many times is that sub tokens are the backbone of the current markets, removing them will severely reduce RMT. Of course trading will still happen but ammount of players willing to buy official tokens from the store vs. players willing to paypal someone dodgy in a PvP full loot MMO with lots of scammers is less. Trading will keep existing and that's good, but it will look a lot different from what it does now.