Remove safepalis

[Sevenless]

Personally once like 5 worlds ago, actually managed to get Berthadin stuck in our airlock and it was pretty funny. Whoever vigi called to knock him let him out in the shenanigans that resulted though.

Hey, I was there for that! We didn't let him out, though. He had the key from somebody in your willig he KOed. He was waiting for your squad of shidders to all go in so he could let his friends in and kill you all. You guys wouldn't have been KOed, you would've died because enclosed spaces with people stronger than you is basically guaranteed death.

But ye, safepali maybe saved you 1 time in half a decade because you're not sure you wouldn't have gotten away otherwise. On the other hand, I know we've counter-ganked koreans and shit around your willig like 10 times and half the time they ran to safepali.

As stated in the original premise, safepalis are for the most part saving people that the average (and me tbh) user doesn't feel ""'deserves""" to be saved. They're saving me when I gank the AD crafter and run away from Felix+squad. They're saving Nonek when he ganks the random hermit on the edge of the world then runs away from the bearcape militia. They're saving faction people with 10 active murder scents that get ganked around their 50 person village.

Safepalis are good for griefing. Safepalis are bad for PVP. This is one of the weird situations where the PVPbois and the nematode's interests are aligned. The first 2 pages of the thread are negative tho so it's already 2late

I'm not really sure why Mrage in a safepally is that different from Mrage chasing shidders in the open world under the assumption that no one is capable of coming to help. Not getting away in either case. But you're absolutely right that a numbskull lost his key and didn't tell us lol, took a bit to jog the memory. Ole berti didn't have it so I was able to TP out inside the locked house, which honestly is really all I personally want it for. But the airlock, which is really just a safepally built into your village if you design it to have an normal exit as well as an entrance, was useful 3-4 times for my village during the bumfights world.

I'm willing to buy the argument that my village is the exception to the rule though. Also good point about having a normal exit gate being more important than potentially trapping someone for lulz. I'll keep that in mind next time I make an airlock if they don't get removed.

[SnuggleSnail]

I'm not really sure why Mrage in a safepally is that different from Mrage chasing shidders

If you have low AC/con but are within UA equalization you need AT LEAST 2 people hitting you to die. If somebody on a mid character doesn't even move, just stands there defending while I hit them they cannot die. If you have rly good stats/AC you /probably/ need a third to be hitting you simultaneously to die. You CAN do it with 2 vs. good AC/stats with red, but man it's actually kinda hard to coordinate, and you have to do some SHP damage every time you try so there's lots of accidental KO potential.

While I'm probably going to be better at running than most people, being better by enough to coordinate a max cleave with just 2/3 people who themselves might not be /that/ good at running is kindof a hassle. I've chased people who weren't good enough to get away, but were good enough to prevent a max cleave for over an hour before.

Safepalis rly make that just not a thing. Everybody flexes to like 60, then guy1 opknocks, guy2 waits for the victim to defend then opks, guy3 cleaves. It's extremely consistent, and the only way to survive in that situation rly is to hope they fuck up the chip damage before the max cleave.

Also, a lot of the time when you're tryharding to kill somebody you'll have to decide to just KO them or accept there's a good chance they're getting away. No matter how bad at running somebody is, as long as they're not literal sprucecaps, there's just a chance they get 6 speedbuffs in a row.

I'd say if you're extremely bad at fighting but know what the buttons do you probably have like a 50% chance to die if I gank you with a Mrage squad, and probably like a 95%+ chance to die if we follow you into a safepali.

To reiterate the original premise, even if I were wrong about people killing themselves with safepalis constantly (I'm not), IMO safepalis end up saving hermit slayers and PVPbois far more than any other class of people that are seen in a more sympathetic light. IMO, most of the hermit killer groups would be A LOT less aggressive if they couldn't run to safepalis.

[Dawidio123]

Idk about the argument that killing ppl in safepalis is easier, i mean honestly if someone is not able to run into safepali with >0 gap they would get fucked anyways and tbh idc, maybe you're right.
But I do also think that ppl fighting near their village, or well, getting ganked near it should have an advantage on running away, someone ganks you in your port with an mrage squad, why shouldn't you be able to just run into your own port and tell them to fuck off? If you're argument rests singlehandedly on ppl unable to run into it without 3 ppl coming in with them it's kinda yknow not a good argument.

Going on a tangent here, but aren't snekkjas literally movable safepalis anyways? So many ppl get saved by just having a snekkja nearby (Including myself obviously), your argument could be that if 2 ppl get into the snekkja with that person and manage to KO them they could just bash the snekkja and perma kill them without even mrage. And the "hermit slayers" can surely instead of a safe pali get themselves a port with 2 snekkjas near the spots they gank hermits at and call someone to pick them up in case of emergency (with the magic of thingwalls letting you be wherever you want to be in 5 minutes or less, or well, just a naked alt).

Overall i feel like you are pushing for a change that doesn't affect you at all (you have no safepalis and if in danger you just run/get someone to pick you up) and that will make it easier to get KOs near villages while making the argument of "WELL IF THEY FUCK UP WHEN RUNNING INTO SAFEPALI AND 3 PPL COME IN WITH THEM THEY HAVE HIGHER CHANCE OF DYING" like yeah okay, as if they were going to survive up until that point if they can't open and close the gate behind them before 3 ppl run in (they can also have a locked house inside, or a multiple gates safepali, etc.)

[SnuggleSnail]

I don't want safepalis to be removed because nabs kill themselves with them constantly (funny), I just correctly assumed that'd be the primary argument against it people would give and I wanted to give a preemptive rebuttable.

The primary reason ///I/// want there to be no safepalis is because I think ganks on higher tiered players around their own willig should be more realistic. We are both fighters and I think if one of us aggros the other 2 minimaps away from our willage doing a quest or something there should be at least some risk. I don't think a safepali being around has ever made anything more fun.

Also, it feels weird to call them a defensive advantage. I have a safepali like 5 minimaps west of your old willig, but none at my willig. I'm sure there will be one popping up nearby your now willig at some point in the near future. The first step to any serious siege is to make a safepali somewhere nearby. In my experience 90% of safepali usage is either @ faction villages defensively (which I think the majority would agree is bad?), or used 'offensively' nearby other willages.

Snekkjas are cringe nobody is going to disagree, but there is at least some potential counter-play to snekkjas. There is no counter-play to safepalis @ faction willages unless you have 20 people, and even then only 1% of the time.

[Dawidio123]

...

Okay that's a lot more fair argument but I also think that ganking someone near their village shouldn't allow you to call in reinforcement form all around the world with thingwalls in less than 10 minutes in case of ppl running out at you and they should have some way to run back and end the fight right there if they don't feel like fighting or just don't have enough ppl online to do it, same as you guys running from berth near your village to ur snekkjas, except you can run into snekkja while aggro'd you cannot run into visitor gate when aggro'd and you can keep ppl aggro'd with 0 issues if you know how to run.

I just don't see where's the "risk" for the ganking party that knows they have numerical advantage available at any moment, bcs we both know there is never "just one" guy, and since running away is pretty easy so is staying in aggro range until your squad arrives.

[SnuggleSnail]

Defender's advantages:

• Uh, sometimes I am just alone? You've seen me solo gank around your willig a thousand times
• If I have friends coming it will probably take them at least a few minutes to get there. Your friends are right there
• You will 100% have water superiority nearby your own base
• You didn't need to spend an hour looking for somebody
• You have horses right there, an entire pen of them, you can chase me down pretty easily if I can't win
• Alts to drop off food/water if necessary
• My scents are going to be right next to your base for you to avoid or fuck me up for the next 4 days

I think this game thrives on 'things' happening, and in my experience safepalis are the ultimate anti-climax. There are enough defensive advantages around your own base as is, but even if there weren't it feels weird to want that. We want to kill each other. Everybody says they quit when fights stop happening, well, why should potential fights end with no counter-play because somebody walked into a box? Silly and unfun.

I could see an argument for them if they protected the nabs, but they absolutely do not. They have no upside.

[Dawidio123]

Uh, sometimes I am just alone? You've seen me solo gank around your willig a thousand times
If I have friends coming it will probably take them at least a few minutes to get there. Your friends are right there
You will 100% have water superiority nearby your own base
You have horses right there, an entire pen of them, you can chase me down pretty easily if I can't win

Mate, you are not getting caught in the 5-10 minutes it takes for you to call ppl in because of how easy it is to run away (remember that time you chased berth for like 20 minutes with horses and shit and he ended up running away anyways bcs he got picked up with a rowboat in the end while the fight happened near your village).
Also this is circumstantial but considering how close you guys lived this world i don't think we can say we had water advantage 2-3 lakes over to north lol (not to mention roads to our lakes made by the angry cats), depending on how far you can run the water advantage gets less and less and most ppl won't instantly login to defend someone getting ganked so there won't be 4 snekkjas and 5 horses running around you from the start.

I mean i get the argument of "more fights == good" and i kinda agree, but there are times when ppl can't be arsed to fight especially when they know they'll get outnumbered in 5-10 minutes that it takes for the cavalry to arrive and will just have to run bcs there is like 5 ppl online from their group (enough to run out get you to fuck off and run back in, not enough to actually fight if ppl arrive).

And as much as you'd like to claim "i was alone", nobody is ever alone in hafen, ever. It's never a 1v1. And even if you are, assuming you are alone is dumb.

Like I'd agree to remove safepalis if something was also done about snekkjas and thingwalls allowing ppl to get reinforcements in minutes. Like worst case scenario, someone ports in with thingwall and picks you up with rowboat.

[SnuggleSnail]

Eh, getting a little off topic but I think you're doing the thing where people see all of the problems their group has and assume the other group doesn't have similar issues. There have unironically been dozens of times where I was AT LEAST 30+ minutes away from my willig somewhere nobody had thingwalls trying to fuck people from relevant willages up on my own this world.

Definitely less true now when travel weariness is infinite and having most thingwalls is pretty ubiquitous, but even if I have backup neither side will rly know for sure who has more backup until the fight happens. Safepalis breed cowards and faction willages should not be full of cowards >:c

[Dawidio123]

Eh, getting a little off topic but I think you're doing the thing where people see all of the problems their group has and assume the other group doesn't have similar issues. There have unironically been dozens of times where I was AT LEAST 30+ minutes away from my willig somewhere nobody had thingwalls trying to fuck people from relevant willages up on my own this world.

Definitely less true now when travel weariness is infinite and having most thingwalls is pretty ubiquitous, but even if I have backup neither side will rly know for sure who has more backup until the fight happens. Safepalis breed cowards and faction willages should not be full of cowards >:c

Fair enough, and as I said i'd agree with safepali removal if we also fuck up snekkjas and thingwalls.

[TheServant]

Then there only will be less fights and just ganks pretty silly idea same as bring permadeath back, fights happen just so less often

Snail wants to do ganks and kill more people thats all about it