Removing tradeable sub tokens and hats

[azrid]

I hate to admit it but Audiosmurf was right once again.
I was ready to move on from ironman discussion last week but the autistic person in the room cant get over it.
The core problem he presents only gets solved by the current popular definition of ironman mode(no trade).

I'm well aware what a localized resource is. Last post I had to clarify for you that you're the one who doesn't know the terms you're operating with like "Iron man" mode. Do we have to go the same route on this one? Also seriously are you at the point now where you're just picking terms I've used and try to imply I'm a noob? Very substantial debating ma man.
You really don't know anything about where I'm at in the game so don't try to pretend like you do. And trust I don't need your coaching.

Are you equating travelling around the world to find a very high quality node valued by high level players to going into the cash shop and buying a sub token? One of these things bring more life to the world, not just through your personal search for that node but the world becomes more lived in for others through you doing that.

This reads like a recollection of how you see localized resources.

If you look at your explanation even closer you even put your own opinion into it arguing how this fake understanding of localized resources brings more life to the world.
Let me express extreme doubt again for your claim of understanding the game. Honestly between you and me I feel embarrassed on your behalf

Hey if you look up localized resources on haven wiki you'll see what people think when they say the term.
Its interesting you feel the need to create a fake debate about terminology.
You need all the haven coaching you can get brother.

[spiritualatom]

Hello, sorry, any chance you can list those? If you've already done that somewhere in this thread, can I get a quote?

[...] And of course I don't have to fill in everything here, he can with this (RMT) advantage contest the other players existence in the game etc etc. I'm very much in the pro pvp camp btw but this guy magically spawning this advantage with his credit card just sucks. And I think it detracts from the games integrity so both lose out in this example.
It's about how this doesn't just come down to choosing or not choosing to content skip personally. Or just get real and play ironman. No, the monetization fundamentally affects the game world. The game is so inherently social that the optimal path (for a new player that's P2W) very quickly becomes the only path.

I really struggle to see how this is a "balanced" approach. It's heavy handed disruption of the whole of MMO and low level PvP experience (which is a huge portion of the player base.) There must be a thousand approaches more balanced than this. Non-tradeable cosmetics like a lot of triple As do successfully? Pay for character slots? Anything??

This reads like a recollection of how you see localized resources.

You went from your hangup on defining Iron man mode into a hangup on my definition of localized resources. So I don't know what to tell you at this point with regards to who is acting autistically and derailing the convo.
Let's try it again for you:
The localized resources are in the game world, you go around and collect them, that's you being part of the game world. You being able to trade these resources you obtained through your own effort for items benefiting you makes sense in the context of the game. Let's say you know about a rock crystal spot that nobody else taps. That's your knowledge of the game world allowing you to gain an advantage. You with me so far? You being able to buy the equivalent advantage with your credit card doesn't make sense in the game world, it doesn't enrich the game world, and is a bad look for a hardcore sandbox pvp MMO like Haven and Hearth.

[Rolly]

Yeah let's implement even more pay 2 win mechanics so we can make money off the ones that are still here. Even though it goes against the core fundamentals of the game.
I'm sure this will encourage player growth smile

Unless you just want game to die asap explain how you will gather at least 500 concurrent players for your "genius" swap to paywall
Mind you game peak last few FtP worlds is around 1000 players*

[azrid]

You went from your hangup on defining Iron man mode into a hangup on my definition of localized resources. So I don't know what to tell you at this point with regards to who is acting autistically and derailing the convo.

So you disagree with all the current popular definitions of words I guess
Glad we learned something about you today. I guess it always a mystery what you will be talking about next. We'll have to pry the information out of you with force and extreme questioning.
On my part Im not hung up on these definitions. If you read carefully Im fine running with your definitions just so we can discuss this topic on the same page. You should let us know in advance about your alternative meanings for words tho. Just so we can skip all the meaningless bickering.

The localized resources are in the game world, you go around and collect them, that's you being part of the game world. You being able to trade these resources you obtained through your own effort

My effort being posting alts at localized resource nodes.

Let's say you know about a rock crystal spot that nobody else taps. That's your knowledge of the game world allowing you to gain an advantage.

rare but lets go with it

You with me so far? You being able to buy the equivalent advantage with your credit card doesn't make sense in the game world, it doesn't enrich the game world, and is a bad look for a hardcore sandbox pvp MMO like Haven and Hearth.

Sure I get where you are coming from. Are we forgetting your core problem that you presented though?
Are you fine with optimal gameplay for a noob to be collecting localized resources on a million alts so they can content skip?
Or do we not care about content skipping anymore?

[spiritualatom]

So you disagree with all the current popular definitions of words I guess

You still haven't talked on my response to your derail attempt earlier when the iron man term use was not to your liking screeeeech.
Is there is any substance to what you're coming with here the second time around? Can you explain to us how I'm using the localized resource term wrong now instead of just quoting what I said, and to such a substantial degree that it prevents you from discussing the topic at hand? :,)
If your in-game skills are on the same level as your contextual reading I get that you want sub tokens to help you out.

Are you fine with optimal gameplay for a noob to be collecting localized resources on a million alts so they can content skip?
Or do we not care about content skipping anymore?

I feel like this has been reoccuring thing throughout the thread. The notion that p2w sub tokens can't be critiqued because there exists other problems/exploits/cheese in the game. Like RMT, botting etc.
This thread isn't about playstyles that are maybe too effective and gives you a trade advantage over other playstyles. It's about that you shouldn't be able to pay for in-game benefits.
So what do you think will be the most prevalent playstyle for your average player? A: First locating a substantial ammount of rock crystal nodes, making a number of alts to cover them, setting up timers etc. and then farming them over the long term.
Or B: Paying 10 bucks.

[spiritualatom]

Unless you just want game to die asap explain how you will gather at least 500 concurrent players for your "genius" swap to paywall
Mind you game peak last few FtP worlds is around 1000 players*

I started playing in 2009 so I'm aware that Haven is a small game. It's a super niche full loot pvp MMO and I think it will always be limited in size because of it, which is fine. But when you cater to a niche audience like this that values authenticity and a "hardcore" experience then a p2w subtoken solution is not a good approach. I think Haven's best bet at future growth is staying true to what sets it apart; slow progression through "light simulation" type systems and uncompromising PvP where advantages gained are through use of said progression systems. Getting back to a point where the monetization doesn't compromise these in-game systems should be number one priority.

Haven is already pretty much paywalled, what was discussed at some point was an alternative branch where you can pay an extra sum to opt out of the p2w. Another option discussed was changing the monetization of the main branch to only selling non-tradeable cosmetics. None of these things will magically create 500 new players, I don't think anything will in an instant. But they are attempts at formulating an alternative to the current situation that is just blatantly bad for the gamestate.

Judging from some responses in this thread I don't know what we should be telling new players coming to this game looking for a hardcore experience.
"Wait what you can bypass 4 months of solo play by paying for a sub token with real money??"
"Yeah yeah but you can just CHOOSE not to do it yourself. Don't worry it has no wider implications and doesn't affect the game in any way whatsoever. And if it does there are worse problems in the game like botting anyway so don't worry about it."

[azrid]

You still haven't talked on my response to your derail attempt earlier when the iron man term use was not to your liking.

Its a good idea when having a debate to agree on what words mean to your debate partner. Simply clarifying and finding out what you mean.

Can you explain to me how I'm using the localized resource term wrong now

I'm very proud of you buddy. You corrected your understanding on what localized resources are when talking in context of haven. Learning in real time is amazing to see even though it was a rough journey for you.

Are you fine with optimal gameplay for a noob to be collecting localized resources on a million alts so they can content skip?
Or do we not care about content skipping anymore?

I feel like this has been reoccuring thing throughout the thread. The notion that p2w sub tokens can't be critiqued because there exists other problems/exploits/cheese in the game. Like RMT, botting etc.
This thread isn't about playstyles that are maybe too effective and gives you a trade advantage over other playstyles. It's about that you shouldn't be able to pay for in-game benefits.

Got it. You don't care about solving your original problem anymore.
What people in the thread have been pointing out is that we have tried your idea and it didn't work and likely wont work for the 2nd time if we try it again.
The biggest change your idea will do is make a server with no players lmao.

A or B

Most noobs will spend a token and buy a shitty set of metal tools that are so outdated it wont have any impact on the competitive side of game. All they are doing is paying for convenience.
People who rmt with tokens or direct payment will not be dominating the game unlike in other mmos.

What was discussed at some point was an alternative branch where you can pay to play. Another option was selling non-tradeable cosmetics. None of these things will magically create 500 new players. But they are attempts at formulating an alternative to the current pay for convenience situation.

They will never uproot their whole business setup for your alternative idea that only promises a 10 player server.

Judging from some responses in this thread I don't know what we should be telling new players

You tell them to treat their first world as a learning experience.
You tell them to participate in the global economy if they wish to skip content(possible and easy without tokens).
You tell them buying for tokens is a huge loss of value if they listened to your first suggestion and learned to play the game.

[serVar161]

I don't see a problem with purchasing in-game items with real money—tokens. They buy them on the market, where anyone can buy the same item. They buy items that already exist in the world, not just bought from the in-game store. This eliminates situations where everyone runs around with stone axes, while the "donator" has Nagibator2026 and dragon armor.

One spends time earning money, another to get these items in the game. Isn't that fair? Life is like that. Find ways. This option keeps both players happy and the developers well-fed.

The only thing I think is truly unfair is accumulating wealth to start a new world with a significant starting capital. This really gives an unfair advantage. A new world is created once a year, and I think it would be better if everyone started from scratch in the new world.
This would also increase the developers' income at the beginning of a new world.

[Luno]

I don't like RMT in general, and Tokens are just like RMT, except they enable players to trade between themselves ingame without requiring third party bullshit.

There is no point in removing Tokens from the game, or hats, or whatever other form of paid currency, if you are not gonna moderate RMT, and they won't, the devs will not moderate RMT and i think that's pretty obvious.

You either ban RMT altogether, and go through the trouble of moderating it so that it can be minimized, or you leave tokens in so that players aren't forced to confirm payments externally. The in-between here is the worst possible scenario, imo.