PvP, Player Attrition, and the Future of Haven & Hearth

[Halbertz]

Things you actually lose in a siege:

• Buildings
• Paveart
• Cheeseracks
• Empty cupboards
• Kiln
• Smelters
• Tarkilns

Also:

• Mineholes (more than a week to build back to 8)
• All infra around (crossroads, safepallies, mammy traps, docks) as usually in this cases you move not on adjusted minimap

you won't even lose all of those because people will be too lazy to bash everything

Depends on amount of carrots on the plot, but yeah. But sometimes opposite happens (Coles Island base for example).

https://youtu.be/4-C2QX8LuIk?t=227

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDS! Why we cant call people THE R WORD but allowed to do this stuff?

[Perunn]

I'm pretty sure the average user would get frustratingly good at escaping if Jorbtar added a rabbit dungeon that required you beat it in a track race

No they wouldn't, at least on default client. Seriously if PvP is supposed to be all about running, why the hell isn't terrain flattening and object hiding in default? That's such a big handicap that it is pretty much impossible to be good at running without a custom client. And if devs would do it Jorb would probably figure out a way to make it look better than those ugly ass squares in custom clients, so videos of the game wouldn't look like absolute cancer.

I can't agree more. The game is beautiful, but PvP is ugly and requires ugly, unappealing third party clients and alts, to be competitive and successful. I just tried to log in twice from the same account with the default client to play with two different chars simultaneously. It doesn't allow me to. Why? My guess is - because it looks ugly and not right to be allowed. Alts and object-hiding are the ugliest, most disgusting thing in this beautiful game.

I think that's already attempted to be fixed in some form as we speak, so let's see how it goes. If hard to be fixed, maybe allowing object-hiding in default client and multiple chars being played simultaneously from the same account would be a nice start. A seasoned veteran would say 'why? you can already do this with 3rd party tools/multiple accounts/bot scripts!' - I know, but don't you think that's ugly? At least for the average Joe it is.

[deMangler]

I'm pretty sure the average user would get frustratingly good at escaping if Jorbtar added a rabbit dungeon that required you beat it in a track race

No they wouldn't, at least on default client. Seriously if PvP is supposed to be all about running, why the hell isn't terrain flattening and object hiding in default? That's such a big handicap that it is pretty much impossible to be good at running without a custom client. And if devs would do it Jorb would probably figure out a way to make it look better than those ugly ass squares in custom clients, so videos of the game wouldn't look like absolute cancer.

I can't agree more. The game is beautiful, but PvP is ugly and requires ugly, unappealing third party clients and alts, to be competitive and successful. I just tried to log in twice from the same account with the default client to play with two different chars simultaneously. It doesn't allow me to. Why? My guess is - because it looks ugly and not right to be allowed. Alts and object-hiding are the ugliest, most disgusting thing in this beautiful game.

I think that's already attempted to be fixed in some form as we speak, so let's see how it goes. If hard to be fixed, maybe allowing object-hiding in default client and multiple chars being played simultaneously from the same account would be a nice start. A seasoned veteran would say 'why? you can already do this with 3rd party tools/multiple accounts/bot scripts!' - I know, but don't you think that's ugly? At least for the average Joe it is.

Have to agree also.
One of the reasons I am a hermit is that I really like the immersion. Despite it's lack of features, the default client is good for that.
Sometimes I use enders if I am exploring, occasionally I am drawn to Hurricane for fighting PvE/PvP but pretty much instantly quit out. It just spoils the whole vibe - even if it is a truly great client for features, I'd rather have the immersion.
I accidently got obsessed with mapping around world 6 time and wrote loads of python to assist that. Totally trashed the game for me. Had to have a break for a few months to purge my experience of that.
The immersion is one of the main reasons I love this game, and if that is Jorbtars reason for the client being the way it is I am grateful, because nobody else is going to make a client so bare.

[Zard]

As the loser of the siege you don't have to leave anything behind. Which is crazy. I'm not surprised theres only one guy who sieges right now. I doubt you even lose mineholes if you dont just leave them open or bash few of the top level ones which will be easy to replace after.
People say siege is impossible but thats not true at all. I bet most sieges are lost because the victim is not able to log on at key times to build catapults and then use them at a later time. Real life responsibilites make sure you cant do that because attacker starts the tingpeace challenge at any time they wish and place the rams at any time they wish.

Just bash the rams they aren't online all the time

From my experience recently they are there in like 10 to 15 seconds no matter the time of day.
The outcome of sieges should be changed. Bases shouldn't be flattened and attackers should get access to some coffer of loot for doing a siege.
I also wish we had regional timers in different provinces when siege is possible once a week or something. Then people could choose their home in a place where they will be able to be online for a siege. Sieges also shouldn't take so long for either side. Thats another way this game doesn't respect the players time.

[SnuggleSnail]

People say siege is impossible but thats not true at all.

Glad we agree on most points, but the way you interpret how you defended is wrong. You've been under siege for I'm guessing 72-120ish hours. During that time the only actions you've taken to defend yourself were to make 40str or whatever alts to try to bash the rams/thingpeace challenge, and twice distracted me with 2 (just bigger alts?) mains as the alts try to bash. Your village has like 10 people in it.

I would argue you doing practically nothing to defend yourself, then earnestly feeling like there was nothing you could do proves my point pretty decisively. The perception matters more than the mechanics. People who aren't having fun, feel helpless, feel stressed, and are losing sleep in the video game they play for fun are not going to continue trying. When sieging most people the actual mechanics do not matter, and you are proof of that.

So, what we have here is the worst of all worlds. Siege mechanics are too defender sided to destroy safepalis, or even the slightest shot in hell to to create sensational, cool, hype sieges - but it's still pretty easy to shit on hermits/mid tier villages because they will not even try to defend themselves.

[Zard]

I didn't feel like I couldn't do anything. The fact is I couldn't be there to build counter siege engines when it was time to do it. And another time I couldn't be there at the time you were moving rams to the wall. I'd say most gamers have some responsibilities outside of games so its valid to point that out here. Do you not have to be on time to build countersiege engines and on time to use them?

[MightySheep]

Making game look like cancer isn't a necessity for pvp. It's like the ppl who play fps games on stretched low res because they think it somehow makes them better. Terrain flattening doesn't matter. Disabling tile transitions, shadows and having square hitboxes definitely dont matter. Hiding trees does somewhat matter but u only need to do it in pvp with a button click. I also don't like my game looking ugly. This stuff falls under same category of fake news copium as everything else

[Massa]

Yeah you definitely don't really need terrain flattening, you just need hitboxes for PvP. That's the real one.

I never really play on ugly mode. What are some of these people supposing the ugly graphics are critical for? You just need to know what not to run into, and precisely where boundaries are, and to be able to hide objects that obstruct view, and sometimes NV to see shit which is the oldest feature in the book. I may flash flatworld on and off sometimes to see something or w/e but it's hardly a need. Other than that, snail is right, public clients have all the shit you need for fighting. Get your 3 boys in discord with 200 ua and bear coats or whatever and jump the nearby shitters with a ram, worst you can do is get gored by them or a moose.

You can't sufficiently wield a cutblade without rain effects. That's why it rained in braveheart and highlander. I do think jorb should find a way to make siege inviting and accessible to the common player. I remember one winter I shat out 15 rams with a sled and woke up to a bunch of yummy eggs to crack, and most hermits really can be that enterprising too.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Yeah you definitely don't really need terrain flattening, you just need hitboxes for PvP. That's the real one.

I never really play on ugly mode. What are some of these people supposing the ugly graphics are critical for? You just need to know what not to run into, and precisely where boundaries are, and to be able to hide objects that obstruct view, and sometimes NV to see shit which is the oldest feature in the book. I may flash flatworld on and off sometimes to see something or w/e but it's hardly a need. Other than that, snail is right, public clients have all the shit you need for fighting. Get your 3 boys in discord with 200 ua and bear coats or whatever and jump the nearby shitters with a ram, worst you can do is get gored by them or a moose.

You can't sufficiently wield a cutblade without rain effects. That's why it rained in braveheart and highlander. I do think jorb should find a way to make siege inviting and accessible to the common player. I remember one winter I shat out 15 rams with a sled and woke up to a bunch of yummy eggs to crack, and most hermits really can be that enterprising too.

Truer words were never spoken.
When I PvP in the mountains I don't bother with flat terrain. I find the best strategy is to put a blindfold on and smash my mouse randomly. It helps even more if I recite lines from the recent science fiction film "Star Wars," which contains a good guide on letting go and trusting karmic energy before firing high explosives.

The only downside I've ever encountered with this tactic is that sometimes my flailing limbs inadvertently strike my nearby gamer bedpan, which dumps the contents on the floor of my basement. The smell has become bad enough that it can distract me as I'm about to climax from the PVP, but I'm looking to invest in some febreeze spray bottles that should let me return to perfect form.

[Massa]

Yeah you definitely don't really need terrain flattening, you just need hitboxes for PvP. That's the real one.

I never really play on ugly mode. What are some of these people supposing the ugly graphics are critical for? You just need to know what not to run into, and precisely where boundaries are, and to be able to hide objects that obstruct view, and sometimes NV to see shit which is the oldest feature in the book. I may flash flatworld on and off sometimes to see something or w/e but it's hardly a need. Other than that, snail is right, public clients have all the shit you need for fighting. Get your 3 boys in discord with 200 ua and bear coats or whatever and jump the nearby shitters with a ram, worst you can do is get gored by them or a moose.

You can't sufficiently wield a cutblade without rain effects. That's why it rained in braveheart and highlander. I do think jorb should find a way to make siege inviting and accessible to the common player. I remember one winter I shat out 15 rams with a sled and woke up to a bunch of yummy eggs to crack, and most hermits really can be that enterprising too.

Truer words were never spoken.
When I PvP in the mountains I don't bother with flat terrain. I find the best strategy is to put a blindfold on and smash my mouse randomly. It helps even more if I recite lines from the recent science fiction film "Star Wars," which contains a good guide on letting go and trusting karmic energy before firing high explosives.

The only downside I've ever encountered with this tactic is that sometimes my flailing limbs inadvertently strike my nearby gamer bedpan, which dumps the contents on the floor of my basement. The smell has become bad enough that it can distract me as I'm about to climax from the PVP, but I'm looking to invest in some febreeze spray bottles that should let me return to perfect form.

use vinegar to clean up gamer bucket spillage

I'm re-reading my post and it sounds a bit absurd but literally ctrl+h and ctrl+n are what you need. hitboxes, and night vision. yes, mountains are heinous, never go near them in a fight, and you CAN avoid wolves without flat world, but it is nice.

flat world is not a top secret client feature or advancement in the arms race, it's as old as hafen. it's just ugly.