P2P plan

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: P2P plan

Postby Cranny » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:24 am

jorb wrote:
powlius wrote:Why there is no option to pay with credit card? I don't and can't have PayPal.


Our first instinct was that we did not want to handle credit card information ourselves, but perhaps we should get over that. We are considering several other payment options.


Yes, please.

I had issues with Pay Pal and do not want to go there again (they have an awfull customer service, besides not listening to reasonable complains).

I use international VISA, and it allways has given me a very nice service for abroad payments.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby donatas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:13 am

Gotohellcadz wrote:
donatas wrote:I've got couple questions about pay to play.

So 10 dollars a month is the cheapest one?
When I buy those 30 days, are they game time? For example 30 days are used when I am logged in and playing (which would be awesome and totally worth paying for) Or is it real time? If so when I ran out of thirty days, do I return to as free user?
Besides that, wouldn't it be fair for free users to get twelve hours every week instead of every month?


it's 30 days as in a sub fee, you get 30 real days to play a game. Should you buy 1 month and not play the game for that month you basically waste the sub. And afterwards (unless you specifically bought the verified option) you go back to the plebby garbo 12 hours a month free user status.


Man it would be awesome if 30 days were game time, whole 720 hours counting down when you are logged and only when you are logged into the game :)

Because if jorb and lofter did that, there wouldn't be as many complaints about p2p system.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby donatas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:23 am

When you click on store and go down to second option and it says buy game time for $15 for 1 month, does that mean game time, like for the free users, since it seems to be different from option 4, since it is $10 for 1 month real time, or is it one and the same thing. Their wording makes me wonder which one to pick. I would prefer game time which I would consume while playing, while others might want to buy real time and not worry about the consuming game time. Hopefully I made logical sense, if not hopefully you guys got what I meant.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby Granger » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:26 am

donatas wrote:Man it would be awesome if 30 days were game time, whole 720 hours counting down when you are logged and only when you are logged into the game :)

Because if jorb and lofter did that, there wouldn't be as many complaints about p2p system.


Yea, and in about 3 month the game would go offline since they starved.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby WarpedWiseMan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:36 am

I want to make a point since this thread seems to have turned a sensible corner around page 88, one of the main reasons I would recommend buying in to the game (even if just a one time thing) is that jorb and loftar have ALWAYS been open to suggestion, critcism and player input. I have never been involved with a project that I wasn't on the actual team in which there was more back and forth with the developers.

They don't hide behind a PR spokesperson. And they'll tell you to fuck off or say "good idea" (they'll never say that) at the drop of a hat. That has always bought my trust.

My last 2 cents.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby TeckXKnight » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:41 am

WarpedWiseMan wrote:They don't hide behind a PR spokesperson. And they'll tell you to fuck off or say "good idea" (they'll never say that) at the drop of a hat. That has always bought my trust.

My last 2 cents.

Yeah, that same honesty and forthrightness probably didn't win over many naysayers when they bluntly told them what was going on with the game launch though. Which is unfortunate, I feel like it's necessary to tell people off directly -- and be told off directly -- in this game. Tempers, emotions, and despair run high both on the forums and in the game. I guess people are just so used to dishing out the hate that they can't take a healthy dose of snideness back or else they feel like their entire lineage has been insulted.

A shame but an inevitability. =)

Hopefully some will be willing to come back and try the game. It really is a blast even with all of the bugs and silliness going on as things settle and everyone figures stuff out.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby WarpedWiseMan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:42 am

TeckXKnight wrote:
WarpedWiseMan wrote:They don't hide behind a PR spokesperson. And they'll tell you to fuck off or say "good idea" (they'll never say that) at the drop of a hat. That has always bought my trust.

My last 2 cents.

Yeah, that same honesty and forthrightness probably didn't win over many naysayers when they bluntly told them what was going on with the game launch though. Which is unfortunate, I feel like it's necessary to tell people off directly -- and be told off directly -- in this game. Tempers, emotions, and despair run high both on the forums and in the game. I guess people are just so used to dishing out the hate that they can't take a healthy dose of snideness back or else they feel like their entire lineage has been insulted.

A shame but an inevitability. =)

Hopefully some will be willing to come back and try the game. It really is a blast even with all of the bugs and silliness going on as things settle and everyone figures stuff out.


Look, all the offense intended to the rest of you, but these forums are made up of 95% whiny, snot-nosed shits. If jorb and loftar listened to them 10% of the time I would have left the community 4 years ago and never looked back.

I hope most of the quitters keep walking. Goldfish would make a better player base than the Russian contingent.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby Ragnar214 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:56 am

WarpedWiseMan wrote:
Look, all the offense intended to the rest of you, but these forums are made up of 95% whiny, snot-nosed shits. If jorb and loftar listened to them 10% of the time I would have left the community 4 years ago and never looked back.

I hope most of the quitters keep walking. Goldfish would make a better player base than the Russian contingent.


I'm sure there is a mix of people who were planning on botting and pure griefing too and they probably are pissed they have to pay for extra accounts to box in. I wouldn't say it's Russians :P I'd say a good amount are americans and westerners (such as myself) too. Many of them write english very well.
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Re: P2P plan

Postby Belizan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:57 am

Since I posted on this thread once, I felt like I should make a follow up post, as, finally, I've found a machine I own that can play this game reasonably. I don't know if this is just a difference in configurations (I only run windows machines... mostly), or due to patches/improvements on the server or a combination of the two, anyway...

So tongue and cheek commentary aside, as a software developer myself, trying to charge money before testing on various platforms is bad. This should not be a surprise, I think, even to a "lay" person. Launch issues are not uncommon, however, and many major studios have had bad launches. Note this also tended to kill their game, but... The internets are not forgiving ;).

Anyway, server uptimes *seem* to have improved dramatically (I've not made a study of them, per se, just my informal perception) and the game is reasonably playable on my Surface (for some reason). Assuming such play experience could be provided ubiquitously on supported platforms, than I would say some p2p model would seem reasonable, however...

I tend to agree with most people that the scale is too high. From what I can tell there has been some significant UI improvements in the game and the flora and fauna have been increased in diversity. How deep these expansions run is unclear. Certain features are clearly missing (healing??), so overall the game is clearly still in pre-release. Personally I do not feel a developer has the right to charge a subscription fee for a pre-release beta product (full stop). I think attempting to do so is attempting to move the needle from industry standards, and that is the most neutral description I can put on it. It is, however, exceedingly common these days to charge a one-time fee for "early access" to a game you are developing. If it had been me, I would have done a one-time fee of $5 per character.

I think one of the troubles you are suffering from is the store descriptions. There are several pretty irrelevant options. Like the verified account. Also trying to "defend" a free account is pointless. I played Archeage (don't bother, btw), which uses many of the same subscription options, and it seems premature to me to try to mimic them.

So, maybe you just need to money to keep the game running, I don't know. Or you are trying to do an in-house kickstarter-like fund raising effort to try to push development to another level. Maybe you hope to become self-sufficient like the Dwarf Fortress (guy, btw, primarily, afaik--he has contributors, but Two dogs(?memory fails me) is basically one stay at home dad, iir). In any of those events, at the least, I'd recommend just being up front about your goals and motivations. People will feel a lot better about it, and more likely to actually give you money. By the by, a kickstarter might not be a bad idea. Just saying.

My final comment, (and all these comments I largely make for myself as I never feel like giant threads like these get read by many people), would be to point out that it's not about what $10/mo is "worth". You are not competing or pricing against the cost of a meal at a restaurant or a movie or whatever. You are pricing against the standards set by other titles in the industry. The subscription model in general is very hard to maintain, even for triple-A titles as it stands. Most only manage it for their honeymoon period when they are the new hotness--usually 1-2 years after release. Many don't even last that long, and these are major titles with major funding, art budgets, marketing, etc. An indie game, unfinished, with a poor track record for maintenance and updates, being released unfinished should not even attempt to charge a subscription fee. But even in so attempting, trying to make comparisons against other subscription games for pricing is really pretty silly. I guess, since I said this was my "final" comment I'll tack on the point that many have already eluded. HnH, like any online multi-player game, can only survive with a minimum quorem of players. If you drive too many players out of the game, the game becomes an empty wasteland making it no fun for your paying players either, who then grow bored and quit. This is a proven intersection of game theory and game marketing, you can look it up; it is the basis for many games going free to play or freemium or whatever. Personally, I hate freemium games, but, devs have to eat too.

In the end you all will do what you do and the market will bare what it will bare and the chips will fall where they may. YMMV and good luck!
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Re: P2P plan

Postby asval » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:01 am

WarpedWiseMan wrote:I want to make a point since this thread seems to have turned a sensible corner around page 88, one of the main reasons I would recommend buying in to the game (even if just a one time thing) is that jorb and loftar have ALWAYS been open to suggestion, critcism and player input. I have never been involved with a project that I wasn't on the actual team in which there was more back and forth with the developers.

They don't hide behind a PR spokesperson. And they'll tell you to fuck off or say "good idea" (they'll never say that) at the drop of a hat. That has always bought my trust.

My last 2 cents.


You just described every indie developer in existence.

There's a reason they're called indie developers, it's because there's like 2-3 people max working in the game so yeah there's no one else to talk to.
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