Beardhat's Long list of Critique of Hafen (H&H2)

[beardhat]

Okay, this will be a rather long post, i've been playing for 3 days now, or roughly 20 hours, i've played the old game off and on, so here is some basic feedback.

First thing to note: I am not much of a forum go'er, I tend to learn everything playing and talking with others in game, most of my knowledge of current mechanics are based on some wiki info, so if any information below is incorrect or misguided in terms of observed gameplay mechanics, I apologize in advance.

-The first one is the elephant in the room, the subscription model, and I am truly sorry if this comes off as rude, its not the intention, but I have never seen such a draconian subscription/paywall model in any other MMO i've ever experienced, it some how manages to be pay 2 win and pay to play at the same time, that is actually mindboggling, both restricting a players ability to log in and defend their stuff or gather goods like silk or gating them from being able to simple things like build towns or explore, now I understand why this was implemented, to deter bots, but to me it feels like more incentive to have bots to micromanage my time, have hundreds of peon alts to build my stuff while I log in to actually do things, and it also feels like a gouge to my wallet as $10 a month is quite a bit for a game I play in spurts, long spurts, but spurts none the less, I myself am the kind of player who picks up a game, plays the hell out of it, then takes a break, my past experiences with H&H were usually over the course of 2-3 months before I die to something silly, or get bored. I don't know what to suggest as a better system, but unlike before where I could bring 2-5+ people into the game with me to start up a small serfdom or village (Depending on mood) me and my friends quickly found out about the new pay 2 play system, and immediately 3 people quit right there and then, and I have nothing to say to keep them playing. I do believe the verified account system is brilliant and a great way to deter mass botting, and if a paywall is needed to keep the game going, please, use the one time fee, the subscription model in this day in age will just drive off players as this is a great background idle game and community game, but not a phone quality "buy more time!" game, the pay 2 not wait system is bad for a game that is already a pretty long wait to do anything.

I could talk write an entire essay on this topic, but long story short, this is an MMO, and MMOs are made to be played with friends and to make friends (and enemies), but limited play time, and a gated pay wall drives away any friends I could possibly bring with me, as well as make it harder to meet neighbors as im too busy micromanaging my play time for that, thus ruining my experience and making me want to not play, at all, and im sure im not the only one who feels this way.

-The second is the removal or nerfs of early boosts such as Personal Beliefs and Foraging. While I can't say that the original Personal Belief system was good, I can say its better then not having anything at all, maybe having the personal belief system in a tree of individual benefits and penalties then a slider would have been a more elegant solution. On the otherhand foraging seems necessary, but looses its usefulness rather fast, while it seems from what others have told me, there are a lot of higher end goods that are worth it, there seems to be less early game things to find that gives you good reliable LP gains, and while I agree that LP gains from the old curios + the personal belief system made for some extreme power leveling for little work compared to crafted curios, it feels like it was a necessary evil in order to get to a state where you can protect your things with claims and walls.

-The third, and final major thing is the graphical change. While I find it is a nice attempt, I have to say that sprite based graphics were much more charming and had a better overall feel to the game itself, while I will admit I used Daji's sprite pack (due to him being a friend I met outside of H&H, and the pixel art is rather nice) I can't say that 3D with this level of detail is really doing it for me. I do love the new panning camera, but the fact that it locks to an awkward grid is beyond grating, im all for more 3D elements to the game, the changing elevations, the fact that we can now jump up and down cliffs, all really great for the game, but on the other hand its rather annoying to get anywhere without using the map to move or interact with things.

Here is a list of minor feedback:
-Removal of Sling, with rabbits being as annoying to catch as they are now, the sling would have been great, the bow being more accessible is all that was all that was needed to make the Bow > Sling, but beforehand Sling was better then Bow simply because of how annoying it was to get a decent bow, you just needed to nerf boat slinging, not remove it all together.
-Can't hearth secret spawn to friends villages, understandable why this was removed, but with verified accounts this could be a feature for verified accounts instead of just being removed completely to derail botting/alting
-Not sure how horses work entirely, but there is no way to refresh 'pony power' or tame a horse permanently, this would have some great potential for animal husbandry to breed for individual horse stats, getting ones that can run longer, or are heartier and can take more hits, or bulkier and can be used to carry larger containers or pull carts longer.
-The new hunger system is meh and is severely limiting early game to get any FEPs to do anything worth while, especially since foraging was nerfed so much.
-NO FISHING MUSIC, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

List of minor kudos:
-Love the new combat system, more understandable, less abusable like boat slinging
-Rivers seem to be less connected then the previous game, makes land travel more important, which is good in my book, less power raiding this way (but the lack of hearth secret spawning makes getting friends to play a huge pain if you've moved out to the far wilderness)
-I am happy that I don't have to log in every 24-20-16-12-8 in order to max out my change belief before I can really start playing, I just wish there was easier early game options to replace the early game boosts that were removed.
-I like the ambient music, can't wait to hear it loop properly.
-Less emphesis on boating is great, just wish the horses alternative was more useful, but the lack of the big blue highway and no hearth secret spawn is bothersome.


And that's about it, loved this game for years, and will probably keep playing old haven with my shiny new verified account for years to come, hope to see changes in the future to make the new version more new player friendly both with pay 2 win and play walls removed, and a more transparent advancement system to fill the gate that was the Personal Belief system, might check it out again then.

Good luck, and have fun!

Beardhat

[Baldarich]

I cannot agree more.
I think the whole subscription thing should be removed and have the game be a one time payment of 20$+, and have a store with items that would be superior to the ones in the game and the only way to get them is to buy them like store packs in salem.
I loved the legacy version and its cute graphics i like 3d elements and animations but i really liked the 2d aspect of the original Haven however i think it should be free and have store items too.

[shubla]

I cannot agree more.
I think the whole subscription thing should be removed and have the game be a one time payment of 20$+, and have a store with items that would be superior to the ones in the game and the only way to get them is to buy them like store packs in salem.
I loved the legacy version and its cute graphics i like 3d elements and animations but i really liked the 2d aspect of the original Haven however i think it should be free and have store items too.

So you want hnh pay 2win? Fuck off

[Avu]

I cannot agree more.
have a store with items that would be superior to the ones in the game and the only way to get them is to buy them like store packs in salem.

That's when i quit playing for good.

[Baldarich]

I cannot agree more.
I think the whole subscription thing should be removed and have the game be a one time payment of 20$+, and have a store with items that would be superior to the ones in the game and the only way to get them is to buy them like store packs in salem.
I loved the legacy version and its cute graphics i like 3d elements and animations but i really liked the 2d aspect of the original Haven however i think it should be free and have store items too.

So you want hnh pay 2win? Fuck off

I didnt say i want hnh p2w...
Making store items would be a nice way to support jorb and loftar while supporting us in game
Look at the pipe lets say there is a store item named antique pipe for 3$ it would be better then the regular pipe because smoking with it would last longer then usual

[shubla]

I cannot agree more.
I think the whole subscription thing should be removed and have the game be a one time payment of 20$+, and have a store with items that would be superior to the ones in the game and the only way to get them is to buy them like store packs in salem.
I loved the legacy version and its cute graphics i like 3d elements and animations but i really liked the 2d aspect of the original Haven however i think it should be free and have store items too.

So you want hnh pay 2win? Fuck off

I didnt say i want hnh p2w...
Making store items would be a nice way to support jorb and loftar while supporting us in game
Look at the pipe lets say there is a store item named antique pipe for 3$ it would be better then the regular pipe because smoking with it would last longer then usual

You just said that you want items in store that are superior compared to free to play items.

[pedorlee]

TF2 its a good example for this.
It's not the same having a cool hat than having a payed extra wich allows you to have more ammo in your weapon, for example.
First one is aesthetic and doesn't change any ingame playability while the second one affects how you play and you relate with other players.
You want to give ventage to those who are willing to pay making this a paytowin game. Thats exactly what we must avoid.

[Baldarich]

You just said that you want items in store that are superior compared to free to play items.

Well isnt an antique pipe superior then the regular one?

[pedorlee]

You just said that you want items in store that are superior compared to free to play items.

Well isnt an antique pipe superior then the regular one?

Thats a low tier fallacy, dude.

[beardhat]

I wouldn't mind a purely cosmetic subscriber system.

Maybe you unlock a bigger beard/ponytail the longer you're subbed, and get cosmetic supporter hats

My big speal with the current model is it drives away potential new players, I had 3 people join the game with me, and all of them quit as soon as one of us found out about the sub system. Which kind of makes me not want to sub if I can't play with friends.

Also "pay 2 not wait" is a pay 2 win and pay to play system rolled into one mechanic, I will not support such a thing. Even worse is I have never felt compelled to bot in the last few worlds, but now I feel like I need bots to micromanage my time, even more so I need alts to gather/build as my precious allotted hours per week can't be used to explore, which was always my favorite thing to do in this game, simply because I am too busy micromanaging silk, leather, crops, ect.

Love the game, i'd even buy it for my friends for the $15 verified account costs, but spending $10 a month, only to quit, then come back and a new world is spawned would just make me upset.