A non-trash siege system

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby ven » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:00 pm

Zeler wrote: make defender put some effor into defending, and make attackers do something else that mindlessly camp a ram.

The defender has already put effort in his defense by building all his walls. It's also known that in any rl conflict the defender always has is easier than the attacker.

That being said, I still think walls should be reworked or removed entirely, and replaced by different structures that slow attackers down and cause a variety of effects, and which then require different skills/actions to be overcome.
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Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby overtyped » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:24 am

jorb wrote:What laughably obvious abuse are you thinking of? Link to bug report or GTFO.

Also, Bob Dole and Robben DuMarsch are upset that the siege system makes defense too easy?

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=47501 Im doing something similar to this.. putting a vlclaim around my pclaim.
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Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby jorb » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:33 am

overtyped wrote:
jorb wrote:What laughably obvious abuse are you thinking of? Link to bug report or GTFO.

Also, Bob Dole and Robben DuMarsch are upset that the siege system makes defense too easy?

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=47501 Im doing something similar to this.. putting a vlclaim around my pclaim.


Awesome, I've seen that thread, but I think you can make reasonable changes to disincentivize that. It's an easy solution to somehow restrict village shield capacity by area.

Then again, should it really be the continuous goal of development to simply abolish any working defensive build that comes up? Because that sounds kind of strange too. I mean, Dis can theoretically be attacked. Under development we first contemplated one shield per authority object, so I'm not sure I mind there being a cell size defined by several villages. A shame, if anything, that they can't be united as a Kingdom.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

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Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby ven » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:50 am

jorb wrote:A shame, if anything, that they can't be united as a Kingdom.

A shame indeed :D
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Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby overtyped » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:10 am

jorb wrote:Awesome, I've seen that thread, but I think you can make reasonable changes to disincentivize that. It's an easy solution to somehow restrict village shield capacity by area.

Then again, should it really be the continuous goal of development to simply abolish any working defensive build that comes up? Because that sounds kind of strange too. I mean, Dis can theoretically be attacked. Under development we first contemplated one shield per authority object, so I'm not sure I mind there being a cell size defined by several villages. A shame, if anything, that they can't be united as a Kingdom.

I really appreciate your response. Number 1 dev. I hope you manage to fix the system.
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Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby Robben_DuMarsch » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:13 am

Jorb, once you successfully siege some large faction, I'll believe in Haven's longterm viability.

Even without firsthand experience, I'm sure you can easily conceptualize the arduous task that comes with destroying a single shield, much less more complicated defenses, be it a double village system or even a double palisade.

I've actually thought for a while you were intentionally trying to kill the ability of any faction to conduct sieges without directly acknowledging it or rendering it absolutely impossible - Simply improbable to the extreme.

I now understand why you believe current siege mechanics are a workable system for attackers: Ignorance and wishful thinking.

I ask for a moment of clarity:
Do you disagree that the likely outcome of this world, as things stand, is likely the same late game stagnation that caused irreversible population decline in previous worlds?
(If not, what changes do you credit for changing the flow of the figurative stream?)

Do you disagree that this lategame stagnation is caused, in large part, by the two related factors of (1)the lack of meaningful player interactions once cities are developed and (2)the inability to resolve conflict meaningfully between impenetrable cities?

Do you disagree that accessible sieges are an available solution to above issues?
Last edited by Robben_DuMarsch on Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:35 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: A non-trash siege system

Postby MightySheep » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:23 am

I wish sieging was an activity, not just a timer.

Wurm online sieges were some of the funnest times I had in a game. You would have like 20 ppl online at 2am, travel for hours to get to enemy base, 10 minutes to construct like 6 or so catapults on location, 2 hours firing catapults at enemy walls. If enemy is active they will be repairing their walls (defender obviously has a big advantage here).

I doubt this would directly translate into haven because in wurm all villages have ai guards, but the principle is the same - it should be an activity and not a stupid timer.

I agree with Robin, current system simply doesnt work. Last world the only sieges that ever happened were done with palibashing. Nobody will ever conduct a ram/catapult siege vs an active village with current system, it just wont happen.
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