VDZ wrote:And what if an insider spy builds a minehole in the village so enemies can enter it from below? There's no real way to prevent that other than denying vandalism permissions to most villagers. (With Visitor this can be easily prevented by having a secured minehole in the village allowing you to easily secure the area under the village; without you would need to specifically tunnel to the area under your village to secure it and prevent this.)
I don't see an issue with denying vandalism permission to select people. Permissions were put in the game specifically to help police problems like this and stop them from happening.
You could also just take steps to ensure that this simply can't happen by securing the same area underground properly. That way it's not even possible for that to work regardless of what the insider saboteur does.
VDZ wrote:I don't know about any other game that would completely destroy weeks or months of progress to teach new players to be careful of certain threats they weren't yet aware of. Also, your statement is completely false; there are tons of games that take a lot of effort to teach new players how to play, ranging from the forced boring tutorial at the start of many games to
Super Mario Bros. designing its entire first level to naturally teach newbies how to play. Any commercial games will try to cater to newbies (sometimes, too often really, even at the expense of dedicated players) because your game can't be commercially successful if newbies are unable to get into your game.
Any other permadeath multiplayer game. Non are quite as time consuming as H&H I'll agree but that's part of what makes this game unique. Anyway let's be honest, new players aren't going to last weeks or months if they have serious security threats.
Also if tutorials are the answer then that's not any argument against fixing the visitor debuff issue. Make tutorials explaining this sort of stuff and highlighting the effects of what can happen if you don't take security seriously.
VDZ wrote:Because then you'd have the same problem as you have now, with 'Visitor fortresses' being trivial to deploy?
Nah they could easily slap on other effects such as longer drying times and they already need a village claim to be active which is already a big boon in the favor of this stopping those.
VDZ wrote:This still screws over newbies unless Visitor Gates are (nearly) as cheap to make as regular gates.
As long as there's a hard limit on how many can be created then the cost for making them can be kept low. In fact this benefits new players since the big villagers will have no benefit from just being bigger. They'll have the exact same number limit on how many of these they can place on their village as some village full of new players who has no idea what they're doing.
As you said in your previous post, making stuff more expensive (resource wise) never solves anything, this would be a solution that would.
VDZ wrote:Numerous? Even this far into the thread the only problem I've heard about is gates being abused to apply Visitor Debuff in combat. What other problems are there that any of the suggestions in this thread would solve?
You've not been reading the thread then, I've laid out tons of things visitor debuff has got in the way of despite not being designed to counter, but I'll quickly go over some of them again.
>Visitor debuff has provided easy outs for people getting chased, the moment they run through their magical gate the chase ends.
>If you knock people out while they're sitting behind a gate (via archery or nidbanes or whatever) you can't risk going in to finish them off nor can you loot them or grab their corpse assuming they're dead
>Bases across the world are just mindlessly able to leave all of their gates open without things being able to be stolen - You should be punished for having shit security and gates being left open (Exception here would be the new visitor gates) should not be repercussion free
>Visitor debuff trap setups being used with garden fence gates being placed everywhere can have good characters killed instantly
>Safe outposts have an added layer of safety that they shouldn't have thanks to visitor debuff
The debuff wasn't designed to combat any of these. It's added too much hand holding and dumbing down of the game for the sake of trade hubs and allowing actual visitors and traders into your base without them being able to cause any shit, and now there's an alternative which keeps those things but gets rid of the negatives mentioned above.