This game is not fun any more

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby DDDsDD999 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:55 pm

Zentetsuken wrote:What mechanics specifically do you think are botted due to them being unfun to play of perform? What mechanics would you like to bot yourself?

Truffles - completely unreasonable to do by hand
Pepper - completely unreasonable to do by hand
Whale - completely unreasonable to do by hand
Mammoths/Anglers - pretty much just baby mode whales, they're not nearly as bad but still pretty bad
Feasting - logging in at least 3 times a day for optimal satiation feasting is unreasonable to do by hand
Cheese - depends if you still have multiple people grinding stats by the time this becomes relevant
Farming - it's fine early in the world but the later stages where you get tired of farming all day, animals eat too much to not justify just using a bot. It's one of the chores you have to do or you lose everything. Optimal quality farming is also unreasonable to do by hand but since you can just run a WWW quality foraging bot it doesn't matter too much
Mining - the boulders are incredibly tedious and is severely less so by using a boulder clearing bot
Steel - bots are nice for this, not too crazy

There's more but I'm on my phone and can't see my bot folder. The solution to most of these is pretty obviously just remove the problem or make it reasonable to do by hand. For example, if pepper REALLY needs to exist because can't remove content, make the final pepper grind give like 50x more pepper. But honestly remove pepper because everything about it is bad.
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby shubla » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:24 pm

DDDsDD999 wrote:
Zentetsuken wrote:What mechanics specifically do you think are botted due to them being unfun to play of perform? What mechanics would you like to bot yourself?

Truffles - completely unreasonable to do by hand
Pepper - completely unreasonable to do by hand
Whale - completely unreasonable to do by hand
Mammoths/Anglers - pretty much just baby mode whales, they're not nearly as bad but still pretty bad
Feasting - logging in at least 3 times a day for optimal satiation feasting is unreasonable to do by hand
Cheese - depends if you still have multiple people grinding stats by the time this becomes relevant
Farming - it's fine early in the world but the later stages where you get tired of farming all day, animals eat too much to not justify just using a bot. It's one of the chores you have to do or you lose everything. Optimal quality farming is also unreasonable to do by hand but since you can just run a WWW quality foraging bot it doesn't matter too much
Mining - the boulders are incredibly tedious and is severely less so by using a boulder clearing bot
Steel - bots are nice for this, not too crazy

There's more but I'm on my phone and can't see my bot folder. The solution to most of these is pretty obviously just remove the problem or make it reasonable to do by hand. For example, if pepper REALLY needs to exist because can't remove content, make the final pepper grind give like 50x more pepper. But honestly remove pepper because everything about it is bad.

That all only applies if you are powergamer, these powergamers also quit the whole game after 8 weeks because they've already done everything.
For more casual and normal players its enough for them to kill even just 1 whale during the world. I'm not sure if these things should be even "fixed".
Yeah they can be improved to be more fun and somewhat less tedious, but there will always be great benefit from botting with pretty much any mechanics, if one wants to max his stats for 3 months, then quit, start spamming for new world and then do it all over again.

What should of course be fixed though, is botting, that causes direct harm to others, like siege and such.
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby razfen » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:50 am

I do not agree with shubla here. Just because some people don't reach the level where pepper is MANDATORY, doesn't meam that it shouldn't be changed.

"1 whale is enough"? bruh what? The speed at which you get to whales does not matter, after a certain point you WANT to integrate whale meat into your diet, powergamer or not. Most casual players just quit before getting to that stage of the game, so we can say the same overexaggerated argument against the other side.

By calling for the removal of botting, you also call for the changing of systems that require botting. The apparent dev opinion is that if a system is botted, that system needs changing.

Yet still, it is what it is. The game is not engaging. You click and something happens. It is fun initially because your character advances fast, but afterwards there is just nothing to do but megaprojects and pvp.
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby terechgracz » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:08 am

razfen wrote:The apparent dev opinion is that if a system is botted, that system needs changing..

And that opinion mostly leads to changes which makes task too boring or too complicated to not be botted.
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby Kaios » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:22 am

terechgracz wrote:
razfen wrote:The apparent dev opinion is that if a system is botted, that system needs changing..

And that opinion mostly leads to changes which makes task too boring or too complicated to not be botted.


I like the way FF14 handles some of the tradeskill mechanics. For example with smithing, you can actively smith and work towards a higher quality product, or, you can smith bulk amounts quickly with less to no chance of receiving a higher quality product. Something like that might be nice, where it's possible to opt out of performing the lengthy actions in exchange for a quality loss or to go through an active skill process to try and improve the quality.
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby Procne » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:32 am

You have some of that in Haven already, although not during the crafting process, but in the form of variable materials.
Often you can either use basic, easily accesible materials, or put some effort to get better ones and get better product
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby Zentetsuken » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:23 pm

Kaios wrote:
terechgracz wrote:
razfen wrote:The apparent dev opinion is that if a system is botted, that system needs changing..

And that opinion mostly leads to changes which makes task too boring or too complicated to not be botted.


I like the way FF14 handles some of the tradeskill mechanics. For example with smithing, you can actively smith and work towards a higher quality product, or, you can smith bulk amounts quickly with less to no chance of receiving a higher quality product. Something like that might be nice, where it's possible to opt out of performing the lengthy actions in exchange for a quality loss or to go through an active skill process to try and improve the quality.


You just described the crafting system in most tradition momrpgs

I don't see how traditional mmorpg crafting could nicely translate to an open world pvp permadeath mmo without making an impossible gap between early joiners/no lifers and casuals/noobs

If you like ff14 why not just play ff14 I don't get it
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby Kaios » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:38 pm

There's nothing wrong with looking to other games for inspiration and I know for a fact that both jorb and loftar do so anyways. You would probably have to play FF14 to understand what I am referring to specifically because there are actual mini-games involved in a lot of the skilling processes that go beyond what your average mmo tends to implement. Tradeskills in FF14 are entirely their own job/class.

Don't tell me what I'm describing, I've played every traditional and non-traditional mmorpg and then some. I know what I'm talking about.
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby Zentetsuken » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm

Kaios wrote:I know what I'm talking about.


debatable.

However, I still don't understand why you torture yourself by playing haven despite feeling as though it needs so much work.

Ofcourse the devs are inspired by other games they like, but do you honestly think they are going to take a look at something (that you of all people) say they should just pull from another game an implement in to haven so that you specifically can enjoy it more?

You need to take a step backwards and look at how silly your rhetoric is. You are asking for the devs to change their entire game to better suit your needs because you are not enjoying it in its current state. That being said there is ofcourse a few areas that need work that everybody can agree on, but you are literally saying the game in its current state is unplayable for you. Do you honestly think they if you just keep your big whiny threads like this bumped that jorb is going to wake up one day and be like "geez, you know what, lets completely redo the entire skill concept" and then get it all done within a few months and you will finally have a game you enjoy?

Obviously that is 100% not going to happen, you are a big boy and you understand this.

So your endgame here is just to be publicly miserable for as long as possible until you get so deeply and emotionally disturbed that you leave for another few years?
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Re: This game is not fun any more

Postby Kaios » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:14 pm

take a chill pill spaz I'm not asking for anything specific, I made a suggestion and highlighted an example
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