One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

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One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:06 pm

It came to my attention that the developers respond to ideas and criticism is a decidedly one-sided manner by making locked threads and elevating them in importance compared to other posts in an almost dismissive fashion. Take this thread for example:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710

This is Jorb addressing the issue of a potential peaceful game idea, it isn't that this argument is completely sound and gives absolute credence to the idea of a PvP game or even makes it necessary that the game be PvP, but because the discussion was locked it became a much more passive-aggressive 'discussion' in tone. For example you could argue that it is not that a more peaceful Haven & Hearth server would be impossible, just difficult. There is also the issue that PvP does not act as a great stand-in for options that could be resolved by code. It also draws interesting parallels between a simplified low risk game environment and the actions of criminals in the real world which at worst could be summed up as myopic interpretations of criminals and why they do things to blatantly offensive in the case that in real life, laws are dictated in some cases by people who are merely powerful and offer no basis for equity, subjective 'rightness', or fairness. That argument is also a moral point, not a functional one, morals do not solve game limitations, effort and coding does.

Take Loftar's post. Annoyingly, many of the situations in his post could have easy counter-points that would not even be that difficult to code (let's avoid this kind of 'oh it would be easy' talk, and let's look at runescape for example). I'm only going to make a point with one of his to show you the holes in this.

"What if a player blocks you?" Well, you make the other player capable of walking through them. Don't like the specifics? Make them only walk through them after repeated clicks and a given amount of time, or a toggle. It's approachable with many angles, this is a peaceful option and a quality of life change, of course it might lead to other unforeseen consequences, like PvP stacking, but that doesn't mean they can't be worked on, it means that with new features comes new challenges and the game must progress mechanically to account for them. Note that in solving a problem for peaceful players being griefed here, that it created a potential exploit for PvP situations. Making the game better for one play style over another may end up doing this sometimes.

Tl;dr

It's not that the game can't become more peaceful, or that grief would not be addressable by code or any of these arguments. The issue is a bit more complex, it's a designer philosophy too, Jorb does not want a peaceful game, let's not kid ourselves that this is a 'solution', it's an excuse to keep things the same.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby mvgulik » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:55 am

So your only example is a ~six year old topic. On which you seem to base your initial very global general conclusion.

Makes sense.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby mulamishne » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:34 am

I have no idea what you're arguing for.

Are you just complaining about the dev stance on pvp?
Are you asking for PvE servers?
Did you get killed in game and need to complain in a way that didn't make you sound salty?

I genuinely have no idea what this game's draw would be if it didn't have interplayer conflict and a way to resolve it. Eventually you'd get bored of seeing your carrot quality go up 2 pts a week.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby jordancoles » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:46 am

Regnurr wrote:Tl;dr
Jorb does not want a peaceful game


/thread
Duhhrail wrote:No matter how fast you think you can beat your meat, Jordancoles lies in the shadows and waits to attack his defenseless prey. (tl;dr) Don't afk and jack off. :lol:

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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:48 am

mulamishne wrote:I have no idea what you're arguing for.

Are you just complaining about the dev stance on pvp?



No, the thread was about the fact that the devs made a stance on something with a bunch of bullshit rationalizations for their desires for a game that is PvP.

I took issue with the bullshit, but could not reply directly to said bullshit because the developers did not want to hear dissenting opinions (the thread is locked and stickied for the rest of time apparently).

This is the equivalent of seeing a room mate leave a passive-aggressive post-it note on your fridge trying to explain to you why it just wasn't possibly to put the milk back in the fridge because the milk was better off providing new pathogens for us to strengthen our immune system against (no, you didn't want to do it).

"Passive aggression" and "one sided talking down to" some nefarious group of unknowns with a pre-defined strawman list of their grievances is the topic. I don't actually mind PvP or PvE because I don't really see many players at all as a hermit in Haven. I do take issue with devs making up poor excuses to an imaginary problem though, especially when they're immortalized as unfixable examples with plainly obvious solutions like I posted.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:14 am

It's rly funny that ur 1 example of a game that deals with griefing without PVP is 1 of my favorite games 2 grief ppl in
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby wonder-ass » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:28 pm

runescape by FAR has one of the most toxic communities of any game. literal death threats over ingame currency, idek why you brought up runescape shit has insane amount of griefing and scamming.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby jordancoles » Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:35 pm

Regnurr wrote:devs made a stance on something with a bunch of bullshit rationalizations

You're going to be very disappointed if you expect anything other than this from Jorb and Loftar :lol:
Duhhrail wrote:No matter how fast you think you can beat your meat, Jordancoles lies in the shadows and waits to attack his defenseless prey. (tl;dr) Don't afk and jack off. :lol:

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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:07 am

There's a difference between someone 'griefing you' by being a dime a dozen cyberbully on the internet and someone killing your permadeath character after you spent a month getting established just to be able to more freely engage with the game's content. You of course know this, a toxic community is meaningless when it can be muted using an ingame feature.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby AntiBlitz » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:01 am

i think you're misunderstanding. They have a hard stance on the direction of the game, and they arent bothered with your opinion on that. Its a creative direction, and its course is set. Understanding that they enjoy the social interactions between players, with a hands off approach to the interactions in the game, is sort of their Modus operandi. They dont need the umpteenth thread asking for a second server, or whatever, and therefore, its discussion is locked.

And your point on blocking is shit. "make them walk through them", well they dont want you to ghost through others, and suddenly your point is irrelevant. Hence ^
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