One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:11 am

AntiBlitz wrote:i think you're misunderstanding. They have a hard stance on the direction of the game, and they arent bothered with your opinion on that. Its a creative direction, and its course is set. Understanding that they enjoy the social interactions between players, with a hands off approach to the interactions in the game, is sort of their Modus operandi. They dont need the umpteenth thread asking for a second server, or whatever, and therefore, its discussion is locked.

And your point on blocking is shit. "make them walk through them", well they dont want you to ghost through others, and suddenly your point is irrelevant. Hence ^


"You make a valid counter-argument, it's shit." Well, that's like, your opinion dude.

When you address an apparently unsolvable issue with a mechanic that is often the first damned thing any game designer has to face in their engine (collisions with other objects), by saying "just make them not have collisions under these circumstances" it resolves to monumental problem doesn't it? Then it gets to the main point of the thread, what is this PvP discussion really about? Because it isn't a coding problem, it isn't a problem that can't be addressed with design ideas as the devs seem to say, and that is the problem I have. They are making bullshit rationalizations for why something can't be done about it, locking down the discussion so you can't say "that's not right though" and then trying to mock people behind that closed thread by pretending their arguments are absurd or something.

I don't mind that the game is PvP, plenty of games are PvP. Would a PvE world be alright? Actually, it just might. There's plenty of co-op survival games which don't focus on PvP which have been so intensely successful commercially and socially it seems like a bad argument to say it wouldn't work. Minecraft made notch bloody rich, and although PvP could exist in minecraft, that is not at all the main draw.

And I'd argue it isn't even a great draw to Haven and Hearth. It's not really a PvP oriented game, how can you say this when 99% of your time you're doing non-PvP things in the game and only sparingly engage in PvP? It takes months to even access PvP, you could just play a game like league of legends which is designed to be competitive. That's not what people in Haven want though. In Haven, you get stacked with good gear and dictate everything, half the satisfaction is in knowing that a griefer can't do anything to you alone if you're geared up against them, because it's a stat check system, not a skill based PvP game.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby cherryquartz » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:09 pm

Regnurr wrote:
AntiBlitz wrote:i think you're misunderstanding. They have a hard stance on the direction of the game, and they arent bothered with your opinion on that. Its a creative direction, and its course is set. Understanding that they enjoy the social interactions between players, with a hands off approach to the interactions in the game, is sort of their Modus operandi. They dont need the umpteenth thread asking for a second server, or whatever, and therefore, its discussion is locked.

And your point on blocking is shit. "make them walk through them", well they dont want you to ghost through others, and suddenly your point is irrelevant. Hence ^


"You make a valid counter-argument, it's shit." Well, that's like, your opinion dude.

When you address an apparently unsolvable issue with a mechanic that is often the first damned thing any game designer has to face in their engine (collisions with other objects), by saying "just make them not have collisions under these circumstances" it resolves to monumental problem doesn't it? Then it gets to the main point of the thread, what is this PvP discussion really about? Because it isn't a coding problem, it isn't a problem that can't be addressed with design ideas as the devs seem to say, and that is the problem I have. They are making bullshit rationalizations for why something can't be done about it, locking down the discussion so you can't say "that's not right though" and then trying to mock people behind that closed thread by pretending their arguments are absurd or something.

I don't mind that the game is PvP, plenty of games are PvP. Would a PvE world be alright? Actually, it just might. There's plenty of co-op survival games which don't focus on PvP which have been so intensely successful commercially and socially it seems like a bad argument to say it wouldn't work. Minecraft made notch bloody rich, and although PvP could exist in minecraft, that is not at all the main draw.

And I'd argue it isn't even a great draw to Haven and Hearth. It's not really a PvP oriented game, how can you say this when 99% of your time you're doing non-PvP things in the game and only sparingly engage in PvP? It takes months to even access PvP, you could just play a game like league of legends which is designed to be competitive. That's not what people in Haven want though. In Haven, you get stacked with good gear and dictate everything, half the satisfaction is in knowing that a griefer can't do anything to you alone if you're geared up against them, because it's a stat check system, not a skill based PvP game.




The thing you're forgetting is, they shut down the conversations because they have heard it before, MANY times. They don't want to make those changes so why should they? The simple solution is for you to go and play Hello Kitty online or something with the level of difficulty you seem to be accustomed.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby terechgracz » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:40 pm

Why you even care? It's not like haven is only f2p mmorpg.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:45 pm

cherryquartz wrote:
Regnurr wrote:
AntiBlitz wrote:i think you're misunderstanding. They have a hard stance on the direction of the game, and they arent bothered with your opinion on that. Its a creative direction, and its course is set. Understanding that they enjoy the social interactions between players, with a hands off approach to the interactions in the game, is sort of their Modus operandi. They dont need the umpteenth thread asking for a second server, or whatever, and therefore, its discussion is locked.

And your point on blocking is shit. "make them walk through them", well they dont want you to ghost through others, and suddenly your point is irrelevant. Hence ^


"You make a valid counter-argument, it's shit." Well, that's like, your opinion dude.

When you address an apparently unsolvable issue with a mechanic that is often the first damned thing any game designer has to face in their engine (collisions with other objects), by saying "just make them not have collisions under these circumstances" it resolves to monumental problem doesn't it? Then it gets to the main point of the thread, what is this PvP discussion really about? Because it isn't a coding problem, it isn't a problem that can't be addressed with design ideas as the devs seem to say, and that is the problem I have. They are making bullshit rationalizations for why something can't be done about it, locking down the discussion so you can't say "that's not right though" and then trying to mock people behind that closed thread by pretending their arguments are absurd or something.

I don't mind that the game is PvP, plenty of games are PvP. Would a PvE world be alright? Actually, it just might. There's plenty of co-op survival games which don't focus on PvP which have been so intensely successful commercially and socially it seems like a bad argument to say it wouldn't work. Minecraft made notch bloody rich, and although PvP could exist in minecraft, that is not at all the main draw.

And I'd argue it isn't even a great draw to Haven and Hearth. It's not really a PvP oriented game, how can you say this when 99% of your time you're doing non-PvP things in the game and only sparingly engage in PvP? It takes months to even access PvP, you could just play a game like league of legends which is designed to be competitive. That's not what people in Haven want though. In Haven, you get stacked with good gear and dictate everything, half the satisfaction is in knowing that a griefer can't do anything to you alone if you're geared up against them, because it's a stat check system, not a skill based PvP game.




The thing you're forgetting is, they shut down the conversations because they have heard it before, MANY times. They don't want to make those changes so why should they? The simple solution is for you to go and play Hello Kitty online or something with the level of difficulty you seem to be accustomed.


Nah I'd just play a PvP game with an Elo rating system in it so there is no ambiguity to how much I can flex on others over video game prowess. This isn't that game by the way.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby abt79 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:57 pm

If I'm understanding correctly, OP isn't saying that H&H can't or shouldn't have a specific direction as determined by its developers, but that "Dev Thoughts on PVP" claims Haven can't work without PVP or, at the very least, always has some kind of PVP and there's nothing to be done about it. OP is claiming that this is an absurd way of putting it because as Devs J&L have absolute control over what is allowed and incentivized within the game world. I don't entirely disagree but don't really see the difference in the distinction. Haven and Hearth is approximately what it is intended to be (a mess because said intention changes by the week), so even though its systems aren't immutable Laws of Physics, they can't have a persistent, player-interaction driven game world without people griefing/annoying/inconveniencing other players just by playing the game. Haven and Hearth is never going to sacrifice its persistence or player-interaction bent and player model collision is a perfect example of something that isn't going to get removed because it is player interaction at the most rudimentary level.

At a micro-scale, Haven and Hearth often flails about unsure of what it intends to be, however the macro-scale foundational idea is quite clear and not very conducive to what you're hoping for. Find a different game, such as the nearly-abandoned legacy (w7) server.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:10 pm

abt79 wrote:At a micro-scale, Haven and Hearth often flails about unsure of what it intends to be, however the macro-scale foundational idea is quite clear and not very conducive to what you're hoping for. Find a different game, such as the nearly-abandoned legacy (w7) server.


I'm not hoping for anything for this game, only a remaster of the original.
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby cherryquartz » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:46 pm

Regnurr wrote:
abt79 wrote:At a micro-scale, Haven and Hearth often flails about unsure of what it intends to be, however the macro-scale foundational idea is quite clear and not very conducive to what you're hoping for. Find a different game, such as the nearly-abandoned legacy (w7) server.


I'm not hoping for anything for this game, only a remaster of the original.



Am i getting this right? You want game development to go backwards?
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby Regnurr » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:48 pm

cherryquartz wrote:
Regnurr wrote:
abt79 wrote:At a micro-scale, Haven and Hearth often flails about unsure of what it intends to be, however the macro-scale foundational idea is quite clear and not very conducive to what you're hoping for. Find a different game, such as the nearly-abandoned legacy (w7) server.


I'm not hoping for anything for this game, only a remaster of the original.



Am i getting this right? You want game development to go backwards?


We're literally amidst a time where game remakes are booming, what are you talking about backwards?
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby jordancoles » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:56 pm

Regnurr wrote:
abt79 wrote:At a micro-scale, Haven and Hearth often flails about unsure of what it intends to be, however the macro-scale foundational idea is quite clear and not very conducive to what you're hoping for. Find a different game, such as the nearly-abandoned legacy (w7) server.


I'm not hoping for anything for this game, only a remaster of the original.

This version of the game is the remastered original
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Re: One sided discussions are not conducive to progress.

Postby cherryquartz » Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:34 pm

Regnurr wrote:
We're literally amidst a time where game remakes are booming, what are you talking about backwards?



This is the remake!!! Basically you're just complaining because you don't like the direction it took. The simple solution is, if you don't like it, don't play it.
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