community vs player progression; a call to change

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby Nightdawg » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:03 pm

jordancoles wrote:I feel like haven may be a better game if the grind was removed from combat stats and attributes (str/agi/con/ua/mc) and was instead put on combat deck configuration and gear. Remove combat stats/attributes and put everyone at the same level if they're naked in the wilderness.

1-100% for HP rather than HP based on your CON. Combat weights equalized across the board for all pvp encounters. Your damage is determined by the quality and your type weapon, not modified by your strength. Your pickaxe mining efficiency is based on the tool type and the quality. Your swimming ability is affected by your gear bonuses (make the base swim distance more reasonable since 10 con swimming is really bad).

Yes, gear qualities go off the charts for certain groups and yes, they would be at a large advantage either way, but no one is immune to being knocked out and looted if they're caught out by themselves. I could see strength in numbers being more relevant for underdog groups with these changes. Would alts in gear be a thing? Sure. Would it be worse? Who knows.

There is obviously a ton to consider when getting rid of UA/MC etc, but I sort of like the idea of every hearthling being somewhat of a threat to you rather than noobs turning into NPCs that you can just roll on your way to other continents or whatever.


How do you stop people from just spawning in infinite alts that are as strong as your 5 month old character? Cause if we were all equal with naked alts, non-pvp noobs would literally die to alts.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby wonder-ass » Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:10 pm

Lmaooo pvp being how much ac the enemy has over you no ty. also alts wouldnt fkn matter nightdawg the gear is your character at that point.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby Nightdawg » Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:16 pm

wonder-ass wrote:Lmaooo pvp being how much ac the enemy has over you no ty. also alts wouldnt fkn matter nightdawg the gear is your character at that point.


But you know well we could literally pump out infinite amounts of steel after 2 months, and it would be like 400q higher than whatever hermits have probably till the end of time xD
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby wonder-ass » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:06 pm

Nightdawg wrote:
wonder-ass wrote:Lmaooo pvp being how much ac the enemy has over you no ty. also alts wouldnt fkn matter nightdawg the gear is your character at that point.


But you know well we could literally pump out infinite amounts of steel after 2 months, and it would be like 400q higher than whatever hermits have probably till the end of time xD



We?? We?!? i would rather have to manually hunt whales than to be forced to join the metal quality grind.
Grinding stats easy grinding metal for good gear not easy.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby Nightdawg » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:47 pm

I mean it takes 2 months to reach q500 and then we're stuck around that till the end of the world, you guys are still grinding your stats after 7 months :roll:
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby SnuggleSnail » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:19 pm

I think when people suggest removing death, or making characters not valuable resources that can be lost they're kinda forgetting that losing a character isn't the only bad thing that can happen to you. The less spooked of death you are, the more viable siege becomes. It'd be really unfortunate if Dakkan spent 18 months making a pyramid and it got destroyed by 10 guys on functionally fresh alts in trash gear risking nothing to do so in cumulatively only a few hours effort.

Wouldn't it be kinda bad if I could just have 5, 10, 50, 200 characters scattered about offline ready to dunk anybody in the area? I think I can make a combat bot in a few hours that would consistently beat >90% of the playerbase with equal or lower stats.

For the most part, the same people who have x10 your stats are the same people who absolutely shit on your industry. It's a pretty safe bet nobody in this thread had access to a B12 that was capable of even cleaving me through my AC this world except Wonder-ass/Nightdawg. The imbalance & the grind would likely be similar if character strength were based on gear.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby jordancoles » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:03 am

It's definitely not a fully fleshed out idea lol, it wouldn't work for a lot of reasons in the current game. It's just fun to think about. Gear qualities being what they are would also need to be considered if combat stats were to be removed.

If steel plates for example were always the same AC/durability and if B12s all dealt the same damage it would be more realistic for balanced pvp encounters, but that's a whole different game at that point (no quality variance). Alts are also an issue because yeah, you can just gear up 50 alts and when one gets KO'd you can just log onto the other one.

Without a major overhaul of the current gameplay loops Haven will always either be a game where you grind hard and never die, or you fall behind and then get shit on with basically no way to defend yourself in standing combat. The main problem being that as time goes on more and more people find themselves in the 2nd category. I've literally murdered people from start to finish in 3 combat moves and that shit definitely doesn't help with player retention (sub 100 playercount, btw)
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby meus » Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:59 pm

The underlying system of almost every competition in HnH is quality. It'd be either stats, skills, or materials. As long as everything is being calculated and variable – i.e. FEPs/ damage/ foraging chance/ amount of milk/ sailing speed/ mining power/ change to gild/ etc. - based on quality & stats, the same gameplay will be inevitably reproduced.

Removing these from the game would make HnH way too generic and simple, and the same reasoning is behind pretty much any non-skill-based game (read: almost all current MMOs), and would further increase the sense of lack of meaningful progression during end-game.

To replace the stats-skills-quality system, we'd need a skill-based UI and gameplay, where the player behind the screen is the one that develops and improves, instead of their in-game "self".
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby maze » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:05 am

meus wrote:The underlying system of almost every competition in HnH is quality. It'd be either stats, skills, or materials. As long as everything is being calculated and variable – i.e. FEPs/ damage/ foraging chance/ amount of milk/ sailing speed/ mining power/ change to gild/ etc. - based on quality & stats, the same gameplay will be inevitably reproduced.

Removing these from the game would make HnH way too generic and simple, and the same reasoning is behind pretty much any non-skill-based game (read: almost all current MMOs), and would further increase the sense of lack of meaningful progression during end-game.

To replace the stats-skills-quality system, we'd need a skill-based UI and gameplay, where the player behind the screen is the one that develops and improves, instead of their in-game "self".


Removing player progression is like removing a middle man of game progression.
Current player progression is just a barrier to the current gameplay and only really stops you from rolling animals instantly.
Then later its only really used for pvp.

My suggestion is to force the player progression into being community progression only; it's not to rid ourselves of the grind of the current gameplay.
Quality grinding is fun, to an extent; and normally rewarding when you're ahead of others because you found the ace in the hole clay spot or water spot.
Now a days it's not so much like that and more who can force feed their alt to insane stats then go around pub stomping noobs.
Ideally if a player is beat then their gear being their current progress level is then passed onto the victor; an award for going after people who are ahead.

With the current system; killing a fully stated player just means no reward and just the satisfaction that you killed someone.
Of course this would mean other systems would need to be put into place to remove current game breaking mechanics; IE logging off with gear to keep it safe.
This would be ideally better if gear and inventory was locked to a sleeping bag of where your hearthling logs off.

also again to restate: I'm not trying to ask for removal of quality grind. the opposite in fact. With no player progression Quality will matter most in all things; gear, food, objects, crafting, ect. Inorder to progress in a community progression world that is the big thing.
You could then take the community progression and pass it along without it being attached to a player, any player can benefit.

I'm not sure why you mention skill base progression as that's not relevant to HnH, we had action combat tested one time. it was a laggy junk fest and had to be removed. But that in a skill base progression, that's the most MMORPG thing you could get and the reverse of what HnH is trying to achieve.

I do see peoples input; the problem with combat alts just needing to be outfitted and set out to war non-stop. It's a good point but I feel if Alts are used more often, and gear sets are lost that would burn out the other groups resources pretty quickly.
In player progression people lose their fighters alts, gear rarly matters.
In community progression alts don't matter, but gear sets do.

But as I stated in my main post I think a late game progression mainly focused on advance players to offset a progression that effects pvp should be added; like battle scares, discovery's, creedos and more. that way progression is semi still in the game and losing an alt would still suck but not setback your community progression only pvp power.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby wonder-ass » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:44 am

Lol if u think u need insane stats to beat 99% of the players in this game u might be the 99%.
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