community vs player progression; a call to change

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby maze » Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:58 pm

Currently editing this thread to better explain the community vs player progression idea 12/26/2021: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xmi ... sp=sharing

Current situation
Since the start Haven&Hearth has been both; player progression and community progression.

Player progression was mainly working on your single character; that would sometimes not pass along to your community. If someone quit, it could cause a large blow to your village progression because they might have been the only farmer, or only smith. This also made it impossible for new players to catch up to older players (PvP or Village progression). Incases you invite a fresh new player to your village, that person could not work on your farms for 1-2 weeks till they got the stats.

Community progression was working up your anvil, cooking area, clay, clothing sets, farming, ect. This is the core fun part of the game that most people seek out at the start of each world.

Player progression has become a hassle to us all.

Banter skip to suggestion or read-> Major parts of player progression is botted by top stat players. Having to log on every day to feed your char 6 times to keep up, stacking your study all the time.

Suggestion
Remove player progression and make the main focus community progression.

Community progression is already in the game but it's very overshadowed by player progression~ removing player progression (stats, attributes, curios) would be a big change to the game but ideally a necessary one.

Possible outcome
With no player progression there would be less need for alting or bots as you would not need mass farms to field a single person. Less likely to make a ton of alts for ever other job. Less likely for players to quit after a death. less likely for players to quit in batches because one player quit, community progression make players worry less about their chars and more willing to fight, there still should be some type of end game player progression to make the last thing be less true.

Community's working together to upgrade community works and push quality of facilities. More trade, as people want to get ahead.

Player progression changes

Player stats and attributes need to capped straight down to 10 and can no longer be increased other then endgame items, buffs, wounds and cloths.

- cloths would need to be gilded and remade, the never ending loop but could be traded away.
- Food; should be made into giving 24 hours buffs when eaten at a table, and have a max (say like 5) buffs you can gain.
- Alchemy already works great
- Wounds; this would ideally be the "new" player progression gaining wounds will sometimes give you a wound('s) that could give small stat increases (battlescars: +5 str.) , however eating an Ancient root can still cure the wounds. this system would be ideal to make fighters more worried about losing their char's or taking dmg.
- Curios; this has always been a tricky one for me. Ideally I would keep them in the game, increase the time they take to study and throw buffs onto them like; while studying a lucky rabbit foot, rabbits you catch have a +5 in Q. Bear tooth, you do 10% more damage to animals.
- Credos this system should stick around but changes should be made

Community progression

Community progression means any action you do, could benefit others. You make clothing, you die to another player, they take your clothing.
But it also allows you to share you clothing with anyone to give another person the same stats, food buffs and other buffs allow players to catch up instantly or take days off without worrying that they would fall to far behind. Players could easily trade their old goods to allow for people to catch up. WWW already have a catchup feature.

End game player progress
This would be more for faction players, Kingdoms and whatnot.
Resource fighting would still be a thing but the shift for resources would ideally be for "refreshing eternity tea".
taking a Ancient Root, Lilypad lotus, heartwood leaves and ageless ice to make the tea. This tea would give a single permanent stat increase at random. This should be relatively hard to do to a point that picking all these at the wrong times would mess them up, IE decay resources after 24 hours. They would need to keep and protect the resources. Also there should only be a few ageless ice in the world, 5 and take around 3 weeks to respawn. Ideally to keep things in balance for a good time.
Last edited by maze on Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby maze » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:13 pm

I should state, I've talked to a ton of people thought discord and IG over the last year about this request to change.
Ultimately the game is a true alpha where the game itself can fully change as a hole.
Many people gave me suggestions and discussed what the biggest problems were for them during their time playing.
One of the main issues was always PvP and the insane amount of being outstated.

It would take new player a month to get to 100-150 stats, then one bad adventure dead - this was an instant quit.

In my time of 11 years of haven and hearth I've grown from 18 years of age to now 30 years of age. The time flys.
I played with large factions, stomping on people with my stats in worlds 3-4. I change my game play and founded a spit off group in world 5 taking slaves. (fun story and true 2 people ended up hooking up because of it)
I spent worlds meeting, talking and slowly aging to a point I only got on for the community. Each world I would start 10 alts cooking, farming, fishing, suvival, miner, ect and share the passwords with my fellow towns folk.
The trust I built with each person is unreal compared to any other MMO I've ever played.
I meet with some of the most well known and the least known of the players in the hearth lands. It's always the community I feel most inspired by, not me getting on and grinding away.

But in the years I've seen flaws, and it's become hard to keep up with haven and hearth.
I feel like the game needs to evolve past its grinds and that would help propel it into a new future- but the biggest problem is the time it would take for such a change. I'm asking J&L to gut the game of some of it's major parts.
I'm hoping those who are still around can see the current world and see it needs changes.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby vatas » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:37 pm

Way this could work is if you could, for example, create position like "village cook" and the person holding the position while physically within the villageclaim has their relevant stats replaced by the "village cook" -template that has its stats raised through some sort of communal village investment. You could of course make someone else "village cook" if previous person stopped playing or left the village, and the template would stay the same.

I think the game definitely needs player progression, my idea is to add community progression as an alternative/auxiliary thing you can work towards.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby abt79 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:53 am

lots of great ideas here, and usually I think of this OP as a shallow tard

+1 to try something radical like this. Haven and Hearth is a grand experiment after all and the argument that RPG-style stat grinding is not conducive to a long and enjoyable world holds water
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby WESKERBOY » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:56 am

I always play as an hermit. For me the aventure is to grind (not caring about other but myself) build my base, with layers of palisades, trade with other playeros and make good relations with other people, all that is player progression, its is needed not be excluded.

No matter what devs do, botters will be botters, cheaters will be cheaters, Haven is not about winning (at least for me) its about the adventure and story u make out of it.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby Nightdawg » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:08 am

WESKERBOY wrote:No matter what devs do, botters will be botters, cheaters will be cheaters.


Would be a shit ton nicer if they did something to decrease the tedium and make botting less of a necessity tho, rather than the opposite
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby Pommfritz » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:12 am

Nightdawg wrote:
WESKERBOY wrote:No matter what devs do, botters will be botters, cheaters will be cheaters.


Would be a shit ton nicer if they did something to decrease the tedium and make botting less of a necessity tho, rather than the opposite


imo the best idea in this thread
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby Archiplex » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:52 pm

Pretty good top-down overview of the game and something I honestly kind of support; many of my suggestions have partially been to feed towards the idea of a communal progression sort of idea. Dunno about specifics, but overall? +1.

All the worst aspects of this game stem from individual progression, it seems; especially due to the burden it puts on people- though I'll warn that a game with low individual progression has a replayability problem, and I'm not sure how well it feeds into the idea of a permanent world that Jorbtar want.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby maze » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:43 pm

Archiplex wrote:Pretty good top-down overview of the game and something I honestly kind of support; many of my suggestions have partially been to feed towards the idea of a communal progression sort of idea. Dunno about specifics, but overall? +1.

All the worst aspects of this game stem from individual progression, it seems; especially due to the burden it puts on people- though I'll warn that a game with low individual progression has a replayability problem, and I'm not sure how well it feeds into the idea of a permanent world that Jorbtar want.


I think the replayability is there still even more so without player progression. Many people wait for new worlds to jump into mainly because their so far behind now, equal footing is fun, and becomes less fun as the gap widens. With player progression removed, a player could jump back in or find a current group still playng and adopt their gear, foods and be at their level.

The missing link I feel people miss is the content that follows after player progression is removed.
-Large massive towns would not be needed as most large towns is to feed titan chars.
-Trade would boom because Quality of objects, food, forgeables would all matter down to the 1.
-Alliances and community would be far more needed as more players would likely pvp, pvp equipment would make or break pvp the most now instead of player stats.
-instead of needing to forfill 10 jobs and make 10 alts you only need 10 sets of clothing's that anyone can pickup and be as good as you. allowing handiedowns or trading to other groups for such cloths.

New content would be less worry about ruining or adding a super player progression thing and more of just adding quality of life things or new things for us.
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Re: community vs player progression; a call to change

Postby jordancoles » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:57 pm

I feel like haven may be a better game if the grind was removed from combat stats and attributes (str/agi/con/ua/mc) and was instead put on combat deck configuration and gear. Remove combat stats/attributes and put everyone at the same level if they're naked in the wilderness.

1-100% for HP rather than HP based on your CON. Combat weights equalized across the board for all pvp encounters. Your damage is determined by the quality and your type weapon, not modified by your strength. Your pickaxe mining efficiency is based on the tool type and the quality. Your swimming ability is affected by your gear bonuses (make the base swim distance more reasonable since 10 con swimming is really bad).

Yes, gear qualities go off the charts for certain groups and yes, they would be at a large advantage either way, but no one is immune to being knocked out and looted if they're caught out by themselves. I could see strength in numbers being more relevant for underdog groups with these changes. Would alts in gear be a thing? Sure. Would it be worse? Who knows.

There is obviously a ton to consider when getting rid of UA/MC etc, but I sort of like the idea of every hearthling being somewhat of a threat to you rather than noobs turning into NPCs that you can just roll on your way to other continents or whatever.
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