Make PVE harder

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Make PVE harder

Postby Zbyx » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:31 am

Been a while since i was online last time (August) but i doubt that things have changed much since then.

Combat against PVE environment feels too easy, lacks challenge... most animals can be killed (with exception of some dungeons) very early into the world (first week). Here are some ideas that i think could be implemented or things which in my opinion should be changed to make PVE environment more challenging. (not always, but in this case i think more challange = more fun)

** Being able to use water transport to cheese animals , a palisade trap or entering/exiting minehole to shoot bow at a troll just doesn't feel as a fun way to cheese stuff and i think should be removed/not possible.
Possible solutions:

- Make it not possible to make openings and damage animals while using rowboat, dugout, coracle and raft. Reduced openings and damage against LAND animals while using Snekkja/Knarr (a debuff when you are in it for example).
- If a player is inside a small boat (rowboat, dugout, coracle, raft) an animal has a chance to damage both with a single attack.
- Make an animal loose all of its openings if its path is blocked by a player made buildings (when fleeing as well). Maybe also get immunity to openings for a few seconds.
- No ideas yet about minehole ( it's 2 am... feeling sleepy... will add later if something comes to mind or someone gives a good idea)
- Maybe add some arrow resistance to troll so it would not be possible to kill it with pretty much undeveloped character.

** Player progression makes fights too easy way too fast, also, i think that some animals should stay relevant throughout the game.
A few ideas:

- Reduce the player damage against aggressive animals (except those that you can tame)
- Make a damage cap (for example 10% of total HP ) so that animal would still pose some kind of a threat even if you have very good gear and very high stats. (maybe a cap for a skill cooldowns too)
- Increase a bit the animals chance to deal wounds against player.
- Reduce the damage of quick barrage and sideswipe against animals (in case i missed some -> make it so that you can't use just 1 skill untill you win a fight unless an animal is very weak)
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby strpk0 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:54 am

PVE is an actively unfun part of the game that is unfortunately mandatory for early world progression (think having to kill upwards of 1k-2k animals to fully unlock combat moves on a character).
With how god awful wounds and armor damage are if you're not cheesing animals, I don't think anybody would enjoy a haven where they're forced to use throwaway alts to hunt boars or whatever, and constantly make garbage sets of bronze armor every time they kill a few animals.
A lot of things will need to change before mindlessly buffing animals is even remotely a good idea.

Consider putting more thought into your ideas before spewing them onto the forums, unfortunately even bad ideas like this have a risk (and history) of being considered by the devs and implemented.
Last edited by strpk0 on Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby telum12 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:56 am

Why do people who don't play keep suggesting things.

Removing cheese would be a detriment to the game as it currently is. Adding wound chance would only add to the problem with pve.
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby Zbyx » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:51 am

strpk0 wrote:PVE is an actively unfun part of the game that is unfortunately mandatory for early world progression (think having to kill upwards of 1k-2k animals to fully unlock combat moves on a character).
With how god awful wounds and armor damage are if you're not cheesing animals, I don't think anybody would enjoy a haven where they're forced to use throwaway alts to hunt boars or whatever, and constantly make garbage sets of bronze armor every time they kill a few animals.
A lot of things will need to change before mindlessly buffing animals is even remotely a good idea.

Consider putting more thought into your ideas before spewing them onto the forums, unfortunately even bad ideas like this have a risk (and history) of being considered by the devs and implemented.


telum12 wrote:Why do people who don't play keep suggesting things.

Removing cheese would be a detriment to the game as it currently is. Adding wound chance would only add to the problem with pve.




I am not against cheesing stuff, i am against the mindless cheese (when fighting animals which in my opinion should be strong) . With cheese mechanics i mentioned you do it solo, risk absolutely nothing and pretty much all you do is spam 1 attack and move a little bit with your mouse.
There are a lot of other ways still to cheese animals (you can enter/exit boat for example and then attack, you can use a horse, you can use bow and arrows and you can use environment like cliffs).

If animal can attack the boat as well as character then you would need to bring repair materials now with you, is that like too much ? lol
Even a small village can produce a shit ton of armors in a relatively short time.
It would be harder to make alts since you would need to develop character a bit before it do anything to lets say a bear.

I don't really want all animals to get stronger than they currently are, there should even be added some which are very easy to kill (but with low reward ofc) so that more people could learn basics of combat faster, but quite a lot of high tier animals should get stronger in my opinion. For example animals that you tame could stay as they currently are, but bears, mooses, cave angler, mammoth,troll, orcas and similar ones would need to be hunted by cheese AND in a group.
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby Massa » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:50 am

God nothing like spruce caps once again demanding they be forced into a boxing ring with a wild animal for some reason. This is like the 5th of these threads I've seen in 2 years.

You want realism or some shit? When you shoot a deer with an arrow in real life it usually dies. In Haven, it runs at you. Humans throughout history have not challenged mammoths, megafauna, or any their prey to an 'even fight'. They trapped or stabbed them.

Your idea would make the game a stinky pile of massive shit. I cannot imagine you seriously believe your idea is really good or beneficial to the game. What is the actual purpose or goal? If you want a 'challenge' from a brainless computer program designed to be beaten go play dark souls and congratulate yourself.

This is not a game about honorably dueling European wildlife. You don't play the game dude, and you clearly haven't in any meaningful way ever. Your suggestions make it clear you probably haven't even dealt with a fleeing animal that hit the warp drive in its ass and ran away at mach 5.

Zbyx wrote:If animal can attack the boat as well as character then you would need to bring repair materials now with you, is that like too much ? lol

Tedium and annoying dog shit that adds nothing, no depth, quality or enjoyment to the game. Just a nuisance.
Zbyx wrote:Even a small village can produce a shit ton of armors in a relatively short time.

Then why bother at all? Just to add more tedium to the game? Find me a real life animal that can actually damage a bronze plate that isn't an elephant. Not even a bear can probably do much to real bronze, definitely not steel. That's the point. That's the definitive point of armor and you want to remove that point. So what do you actually propose? That deer cave in your tempered steel plate armor you've spent days making?
Zbyx wrote:It would be harder to make alts since you would need to develop character a bit before it do anything to lets say a bear.

A bear is nothing. A bear is trash to a developed village. A bear produces a paltry pathetic handful of borderline worthless meat, a useless and stupid hat, and other garbage products no one really needs or wants. For any meaningful products derived from bears a single player could go through dozens of bears in a week.

And finally, please, I implore you. I truly beg of you to go find a troll. I've found many exploring cave systems long abandoned that never got killed. Find one, build a palisade far away, lure it to that palisade, and "shoot it with a bow" as you said. I would love to see how that works out for you. You speak with a mountain of confidence and no experience at all.
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby Zbyx » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:14 am

Massa wrote:God nothing like spruce caps once again demanding they be forced into a boxing ring with a wild animal for some reason.

Obviously because i believe that it is better than almost mindless fights that we have now.
Massa wrote:You want realism or some shit?

No
Massa wrote: What is the actual purpose or goal? If you want a 'challenge' from a brainless computer program designed

Yea i am pretty sure it is a lot more fun when you have to put at least little bit of thought into battle instead of mindless fight like we have now for the most part.
Also, to make people a bit more wary of wildlife even if they have a few thousand points in stats (that's why i offered damage cap), it can create some interesting situations that did not happen before.
Massa wrote: This is not a game about honorably dueling European wildlife.

Lol. Good one. It is not my goal though.
Massa wrote:
Zbyx wrote:If animal can attack the boat as well as character then you would need to bring repair materials now with you, is that like too much ? lol

Tedium and annoying dog shit that adds nothing, no depth, quality or enjoyment to the game. Just a nuisance.

Good point. I just didn't have any other idea on how to make people stop using boats for cheese (other than making it impossible to attack from boat at all) , at least how the cheese currently is , because i think it creates situation where you risk absolutely nothing and don't need to think about anything when fighting all wildlife which cannot shoot at you (pretty much only mammoth and maybe cave angler although his projectiles are rare) or swim faster than your boat.
Massa wrote:
Zbyx wrote:Even a small village can produce a shit ton of armors in a relatively short time.

Then why bother at all? Just to add more tedium to the game? Find me a real life animal that can actually damage a bronze plate that isn't an elephant. Not even a bear can probably do much to real bronze, definitely not steel. That's the point. That's the definitive point of armor and you want to remove that point. So what do you actually propose? That deer cave in your tempered steel plate armor you've spent days making?

To make people care more about equipment, to make it have some kind of value, to make people think which fights they should take and which not.
Currently armor lasts almost forever, makes you pretty much invincible to damage and lets you hunt non-stop (just eat a yarrow once in a while and that's it). I don't have problem with first two points as much as with that all these 3 points are combined currently.
Massa wrote:
Zbyx wrote:It would be harder to make alts since you would need to develop character a bit before it do anything to lets say a bear.

A bear is nothing. A bear is trash to a developed village. A bear produces a paltry pathetic handful of borderline worthless meat, a useless and stupid hat, and other garbage products no one really needs or wants. For any meaningful products derived from bears a single player could go through dozens of bears in a week.

I did not mean a bear specifically, it was just an example , although i don't mind if a reward was a bit better or changed in case animal strength was increased significantly.
Massa wrote: And finally, please, I implore you. I truly beg of you to go find a troll. I've found many exploring cave systems long abandoned that never got killed. Find one, build a palisade far away, lure it to that palisade, and "shoot it with a bow" as you said. I would love to see how that works out for you. You speak with a mountain of confidence and no experience at all.

You don't build a palisade, it will block it and make it use his cave-in skill.
What you do is build a minehole -> lure troll near it (dig a big tunnel and lure troll with fresh spawn alt) -> exit through minehole -> enter through minehole -> shoot a troll with a bow -> exit through minehole (repeat last 3 steps untill it is dead).
All done with character which has around 50 marksmanship and a rangers bow. ( I don't remember quality of bow we used but it was similar to marksmanship)
The only trouble is for very deep mines where you need expensive materials, but any level above is killed by this "very hard cheese tactics" which i don't support and is one of the reasons why i made this thread.
Massa wrote: You speak with a mountain of confidence and no experience at all.

Hah, what a coincidence, i think the exact same thing can be told about you.

The problem that i got is
A guide how to kill :

*Any land animal above ground or underground (except mammoth and troll) : Lure "insert animal name" to water source -> Enter a boat -> Equip boar spear -> Kill it from safe range and take no damage (you can even do it with different weapon but with a bit more effort moving back and forth but result is the same)

* Mammoth (or land animal too if you prefer except troll ofc) : Build a 2-part palisade with a hole in it -> Lure Mammoth inside and close gate with an alt or help of a friend -> kill Mammoth through the hole in a palisade by finding an angle where you can attack it but it cant fight back

*(Troll is explained just a little bit above)

* Water animals are a bit more tricky but all you need is a Snekja. Animals that can walk on ground are fine but those which can't are just killed like land animals but you stand on land instead , mindless fight once again.

Ah and all you need is a SINGLE character with q40 weapon and less than or in some cases a bit above 100 stats. Basically in about a week you can kill pretty much anything except a Cachalot and a beaver/bat dungeon. And in one more week you will have endless supplies to do it forever.
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby telum12 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:01 pm

I couldn't find a bear to make my point but as soon as you have stats they're literally trash if you're just fighting it 1v1. Making them do more damage to your armour does nothing except for you to keep 2 sets of armour: Good armour in case someone tries to fight you and bad armour to soak damage from animals. The whole armour-damage-from-animals is dumb in the first place, making it worse is really extra dude...
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby Zbyx » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:45 pm

telum12 wrote:I couldn't find a bear to make my point but as soon as you have stats they're literally trash if you're just fighting it 1v1.

Yep. And i want it to be changed so that the minimum difficulty level of a fight (against animals of value) would never go below "Hard". It already is super easy if you try to hunt with 2 people at once , not to mention if more.

telum12 wrote: Making them do more damage to your armour does nothing except for you to keep 2 sets of armour: Good armour in case someone tries to fight you and bad armour to soak damage from animals. The whole armour-damage-from-animals is dumb in the first place, making it worse is really extra dude...

I simply don't like that you sacrifice nothing unless you show an outstanding cheesing skill when killing a valuable animal. I am open to hear other ideas of course.
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby Xoatl » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:51 pm

Massa wrote:This is not a game about honorably dueling European wildlife


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Make PVE harder

Postby Zbyx » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:22 pm

up
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