QoL and rebalancing food

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

QoL and rebalancing food

Postby Pommfritz » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:45 pm

I wanted to make this thread for a while but didnt get around doing it.
So I have been getting some more experience in the game and how things work and I think I got some alright ideas by now. Mostly I think the community wants quality of life over anything else, making the game less tedious to play.

Here are some ideas on QoL improvements.
Lets talk about scripting quickly. I think even with the sickest QoL improvements and the current ruleset regarding botting/scripting (none) there will always be people who abuse that to the max, even if there was a rulset regarding this. How small pp and gay it might be in other games I think it's fair game here given the circumstances. My goal is to delviver some ideas to simply make scripting and the like much less necessairy if you just want to play the game on a decent level.

Alright,

PEPPER
make one unit of pepper from one peppercorn instead of from 5.
this alone should make the pepper producing process a lot less tedious, keep in mind that no matter how tedious a process is botters will always get the max out of it since they just have to spend time programming and then can chill on their gains or refine the process, however for normal players it's just not possible to get as much pepper as you actually need without sitting in front of the computer and making pepper processing your only game play.

regarding balancing the effort spent to make pepper which I think is supposed to be a luxury ressource(?) it could be balanced with a barrier of entry meaning that you have to spend a lot of effort to be able to plant pepper and from then on you enjoy the gains of your work. For example locking it behind a credo deeper in the credo path for farmers, maybe in a future world (something like the gardener credo does with bluebells etc).
The amount of water spent when boiling pepper is a lot, esp when you have to go somewhere out of your base to get good q water and in my opinion it's fine for being the tedious part.

Oh yea the effort spent building trellis is retarded but imo that's in line with spending a lot of effort to get there and enjoying the gains, so it's kind of fine, just remove the energy bar from the game xd (just kidding... maybe not)

well, wouldn't that allow everyone to raise their stats infinitely and make insane gains that are unreasonable?
first of all there is still a lot of effort involved into producing pepper for "everyone" aka the hermit
and sort of, yes, you would defo get closer to the top guys which you probably won't get close to but at least you feel like it. There are many things to think about here
first of all is the damage formula which gives heavily diminishing returns the higher your str goes
I made a small simulation of this and the healthpool at certain stats here with the wiki's formulas:
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fakeedit: I seem to not be able to putting it into a spoiler xd

I think most people overestimate this and think double str = double damage. But as you can see you do roughly 19% more damage everytime you double your strength. And there is also Armor Class and your general combat ability which are far more important imo but slap all of this onto a good player and you just always get KO'd on the lower end if you can't get out of the situation (it's probably fine tho).

I still think stats can get quite ridiculously high btw with almost no end (19% more damage for example are still 19% more damage) and I also think people don't want to spend infinite effort to grind their stats, lets say the world would go 10 years, you will probably have people with 50-100k str. I think if you want to make worlds last longer the content has to be around something else than stats grinding in the long run and there sort of has to be a cap or balance around this that doesn't set player that are just starting far far back (10 year example). Again spending effort to get to a certain point and then enjoying the content. I come from games like Guild Wars (talking about gw1) where you progressed to a certain point character wise and the rest of the game was about clearing content based on your groups skill and getting some prestigious items (that just had nicer looks basically) or the story behind it if you liked that. Making a game truely skill based is very hard I think and I don't mind some grind for gear or stats it has something but as you can see a long lasting world is just not possible if it's too much of this.

some rebalancing ideas
some foods are just ridiculously op compared to everything else. I mean if your incentive was to create this 10 year world where the players from the start run around with 50k stats then it sort of makes sense. But for example how can I make a shepherd's pie from the shittiest mats I have for a good recipe and it comes out with 200 fep? rofl. Ofc I'm playing the game and progressing myself so I don't mind it right now but compared to everything else I can craft con related this is just retarded.
I think the nodes at where the game is balanced are the wrong ones for stuff like pepper every step is very tedious however what I think is more correct, would be as said create a barrier of entry (probably leave this out for non luxury mats) and then balance the massive gains players could potentially have through other means. I think there needs to be an effective cap. There sort of is, the numbers are just way off. Here is an artful drawing of what I mean:

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the effort stays the same until you hit the effective cap
your gains are very quick in the beginning and drop off in the end, it's basically how it is right now just with a lot flatter top end curve. imo put the effective cap somewhere between 1-10k stats (or whatever you think is reasonable for max combat stats), figure out propper feps on foods and balance food intake with the hunger bar far more than with making the foodmaking process tedious. However the more efficient approach that probably also works is to make an effective cap and leave the hunger bar and feps how they are. There was already a very good change with making satiations 3x slower for QoL that helped out with the feasting part.

DRINKING
decrease sips from any drink to 0.01 from 0.05
for feasting: maintaing propper amount of drinks is aids, esp perry comes to my mind I have 24 pear trees right now and harvest pears for about 1/3 of my juice on abandoned claims and it's barely enough (and I'm not very good at the food making and feasting process either so I can't imagine how many I would need if it was actually on point, for ONE PLAYER btw), for pure meat satiations I take wine it's far easier to produce but getting a full barrel perry is way too much effort imo. Similliar things apply to cider, I think it's barely used tho (still very difficult to make the distilled thing from it).
far more important is water usage tho, carrying 50l+ of water around in your belt doesn't make sense and makes the game tedious (refilling, carrying shit tons of barrels around etc) also dinking so much water doesn't make sense let me drink 10l with the same effort spent.
There is more tedium generally when feasting with drinks I have no ideas for that but I'm aware they exist

FARMING
generally I'm fine with farming, auto harvesting is nice, replanting is just a click, all good. However I'm not fine with the amount of crops I need to grow as a single person. I'm growing highq crops for mulch that goes into tree pots and garden pots (they are higher q than most animals i can use to make mulch), I need a shit ton of crops to feed the animals and I have very basic animal farm. a few of everything. And ofc I feed myself with it. I wouldn't ever want to be the person that does farming in a village for example. If I put everything together I'm growing 1200 tiles of crops + another 650crops for pepper and wine. In which world does it make sense to need so many crops for a single player? and btw I will need more since I will need a lot more pigs to raise my stats. I'm not sure how to go about it but if you want to lessen the incentive to bot (we already talked about pepper) the amount of crops I need to progress my village/ character should be far less.
I think seed to flour conversion is fine (at least from my experience).
I think seed to mulch conversion is also fine
I think seed to swill conversion is very bad, probably should be more like seed to mulch conversion?
I'm not the most experienced farmer nor do I have a clue of the perfect animal set up and how to grow them very efficiently but that's my point of view so far.

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Imo right now is the best time to try things out, player count this world has already declined, you can test around with things like making pepper at a 1:1 ratio or other stuff you think would make the game better to play and see how the player base likes it and then take it into the next world or maybe extend/ grow this world if you hit a few good changes?

I didn't mention any mining or metal industry stuff simply because I don't do it much unless I have to, I prefer trading to get metal stuff and tools rn.
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby meus » Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:41 pm

Players are not supposed to keep raising stats indefinitely - that's why you need more and more FEPs the higher your stats become. It's a "soft cap", if you wish.

The main reason to eat food is to regain energy - and you get it with no diminishing returns - while FEPs are a nice extra bonus.

Otherwise, they could've already removed (and not even introduced, in the first place) the FEPs, satiations and variance mechanics - which are here for the same reason.
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby DDDsDD999 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:45 pm

meus wrote:Players are not supposed to keep raising stats indefinitely - that's why you need more and more FEPs the higher your stats become. It's a "soft cap", if you wish.

The main reason to eat food is to regain energy - and you get it with no diminishing returns - while FEPs are a nice extra bonus.

Otherwise, they could've already removed (and not even introduced, in the first place) the FEPs, satiations and variance mechanics - which are here for the same reason.

This post here is definitive proof that intelligent design exists. Only a fully cognizant mind could've constructed such a post, designing everything so wholly wrong and devoid of any truth is no easy feat.

There's been postulations that with enough monkeys randomly jamming keyboard presses that they would eventually recreate the exact words of Shakespeare. Yet here, by some miracle of a surely divine power, through similar random keyboard presses as described previously, this single poster has created the most wrong post in existence.
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby Pommfritz » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:48 pm

Yea I didn't even want to reply lol
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby meus » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:18 pm

Replying or not - doesn't make it any less true.
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That's how it is, believe it or not:
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@OP summary in 1 sentence: Raising stats 10-100 is easy, 100-1000 is harder, 1000+ requires some actual effort (Duh!).

Any assumption that you should gain more and more stats for the same effort as the game progresses is obviously wrong.
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby Pommfritz » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:16 pm

I don't remember when I created a character that started at cap and lost stats over time
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby WowGain » Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:54 pm

meus wrote:.


i heard the chimp exhibit was missing a funny monkey and i think its you
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Re: QoL and rebalancing food

Postby Massa » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:59 pm

Hey gameboys, Meus here! I've never played the game so let me tell you about its complex intricacies and the fundamentals.

Also to the OP I agree, crops yields are pathetic for what they are. We need like 5-10x the fodder and materials from every crop. It just takes too much to manage multiple systems.
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