Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

[telum12]

Why do people always surprise-pikachu-face when faced with the realization that stats give you an advantage? That is the case in 99% of games.

You should know, however, that there are very important properties of stats in this game: Hard-limits, diminishing returns, and equalization.

- Hard-limits: Things such as agi cd reductions/improvements have hard limits to them.
- Diminishing returns: The amount of gain you receive from str, con, quality, ua/mc all significantly diminish the higher the numbers are.
- *** Example: 200 str vs. 100 str is 19% more damage. 1200 vs. 1100 is 2% more damage. (Note: To get the 19% damage bonus you need to double the other person's str.) Pommfritz's 2800 str vs. your 500 would amount to 54% more damage. That's a pretty decent chunk more, but it's much less than you'd think given the HUGE disparity in stats.
- Equalization: ua/mc equalize between people, meaning that if you have 300 ua and Pommfritz has 600, you will be treated as if you had 600 ua too. It's very difficult for ua/mc differences to matter, unless you are heavily out-LP'd. Even then, attack weights are third-rooted.

What you should also remember is that the requirements for higher stats is polynomial. Going from 500 ua to 1000 ua requires a lot more LP than 0 -> 500. The same goes for FEP requirements.

If someone has 6x more stats than you because they eat more and spent more time playing (note: That's a lot more than 6x the amount of FEP you ate), and that gives them a 50% increased damage on you, it doesn't seem that unfair...

Nothing you said is illogical or wrong. I would say that I spend a few hours, 5 days a week, playing Haven. I play with similar people. People that have responsibilities. Most of these types of people spend their free time doing things they like to do. I would argue that that amount of time is the most anyone that is above the age of 18 should spend on a game, give or take. If you are saying that, very simply, if you are not willing to treat this like a job you have no right to play and do not deserve a voice, then so be it. It seems that that is your point. I know you point out diminishing returns, but those are only at the high end. At some point guys like you will have to move on for fiscal reasons. Are you saying that a normal playerbase does not deserve to play this game? By the way the only ones that keep saying stats have no advantage is you and yours.

That's not what I am saying. My point is that the disparity between stats is not as immense as people make it out to be. This shit is the same as in every game. If you have higher stats, you have an advantage. My point is that the advantage is not linear with the amount of time you spend raising stats. A person who spends 2x the time/effort as you doesn't get 2x the damage etc. They need to spend a IMMENSLY larger amount of effort to have 2x whatever you can do.

Do the formulas need tuning to make things more fair? Probably. It's definitely not well balanced, and is almost never touched. Even real game dev companies have a hard time balancing these things. Does that mean the system is inherently unfair in a game-breaking manner? Not really, it's just not tuned as well as it could be.

[Archiplex]

surrendering immediately breaks combat relationship and stuns the hearthling for a period of time, to which they can be looted similarly to corpses, and at the end of which they teleport home

only way to keep (but not initiate again) combat relation is via murderous rage, which probably creates some new scent or something who cares

[DoctorCookie]

Do the formulas need tuning to make things more fair? Probably. It's definitely not well balanced, and is almost never touched. Even real game dev companies have a hard time balancing these things. Does that mean the system is inherently unfair in a game-breaking manner? Not really, it's just not tuned as well as it could be.

That is not an unreasonable reply. I do not want this to be an easy entry game, it is H&H, it has a well deserved reputation. It aint easy. I think you have hit upon something here. What if there were no skill caps but at a point the returns were terribly small, to the point of being only beneficial to the ultra elite player. Similar to alternate advancement in original Everquest. These benefits would not help in PVP but give access to moves that could be used in end game content like going toe to toe with high end MOBs. Would anyone be upset if you could only max stats at 1000 but be able to continue to grind special stats as a no lifer to give your faction an advantage?

[MadNomad]

I thought it was sequentional
for LP stats: sequence of 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500 and so on until it ends somewhere
for FEP stats: sequence of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and so on until it ends somewhere

That's not how sequences work...

\sum_{i=1}^{n} 100*i = 100 * \sum_{i=1}^{n} i = n(n+1)/2

\sum_{i=10}^{n} i = \sum_{i=1}^{n} i - (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) = n(n+1)/2 - 45

i.e., both LP and FEP requirements grow polynomially with n.

So, if you're at k str and someone wants to double your cleave damage they need n str s.t.:

2 = sqrt(sqrt(n)/10)/sqrt(sqrt(k)/10) <=> k^(1/4)*2 = n^(1/4) <=> 16k = n

i.e. they need 16x your str. Okay, but how much FEP will 16x more str take? :

n(n+1)/2 - 45|_{n=16k} = 16k(16k+1)/2 - 45 = 128k^2 + 8k - 45

If you're not sure, that's a fuckton more.

So, if you have 500 str you'd need a total of:

FEP = 500(500 + 1)/2 - 45 = 125 205

But in order to double your damage, your enemy needs 16*500 = 8000 str. How much FEP will that take?

FEP = 8000(8000+1)/2-45 = 32 003 955

That's 255x the amount of FEP you need 'till 500 str. And that's just to 2x your damage.

I don't understand this
don't you begin with your fep stats at 10 and first have to eat for 10 fep, then for 11 fep, and then for 12 fep? to gain stats

You're just a pretentious shitter..

maybe I am, maybe I am not, but how can you tell? do you see my screen all the time? I have also not been pretending, but said what I think

Like you can literally just remove "ad personam" from the sentence and it's the exact same fucking sentence. The only reason you added it in is because you think it makes you look smart..

XD

definitely this can't be forgiven

probably one of the last people on this forum that I would trust

Based off of what?

he only plays to ruin other people's games and post terrible humiliating posts about it on forum, do you trust such person?

removing stats doesn't solve the problems you're facing.

I don't want to remove stats

I just don't want them to mean sure win or sure loss, I still want them to mean something, but not everything without allowing an element of skill

perhaps someone will think of an idea of how to do this one day?

[telum12]

I don't understand this
don't you begin with your fep stats at 10 and first have to eat for 10 fep, then for 11 fep, and then for 12 fep? to gain stats

If you're asking the question, "how much more fep do you need when going from n to n+1," then yes, it's 1 more. If you're asking how much more to go from n to n+k, then it's polynomial with k.

It doesn't matter how much my next FEP will cost. It matters how much the total FEP cost grows as the level gets higher and higher.

Since you've a program that generates the sequence for you, try graphing cumulative LP or FEP requirements. You'll very quickly see that it's not linear. How much FEP total do you need to get 1 FEP increase? How much total for 2? Etc. The generalised formula for this is k(k+1)/2 - 45, where k is how many FEP levels you're going up. Of course, this is polynomial.

maybe I am, maybe I am not, but how can you tell? do you see my screen all the time? I have also not been pretending, but said what I think

Being pretentious is not the same as pretending in general. Being pretentious is trying to look like you're the shit when you're not the shit. For example, by injecting unnecessary latin phrases for logical fallacies into your sentence.

he only plays to ruin other people's games and post terrible humiliating posts about it on forum, do you trust such person?

spruce-killing done by snail and others is basically the hnh equivalence of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hw6ZW8qDo7Y

Are they an ass? Sure. Is it a completely reasonable playstyle in an open-world pvp game? Of course.

Idk what "terrible humiliating" posts you're reading. P sure me calling you a smooth-brained retard is worse than most of what snail posts.

I just don't want them to mean sure win or sure loss, I still want them to mean something, but not everything without allowing an element of skill

The problem with your argument is that you think there's no skill. I'm 99% sure you're worse than me at PVP and I fucking suck. I would lose a 1v1 against a competent PVPer even if I have stat advantage. You would definitely lose it.

It's like talking to a fucking wall.

[Pommfritz]

MadNomad is probably the coolest guy in his village

[MadNomad]

MadNomad is probably the coolest guy in his village

I just like to hoard stuff and stats inside of my walls, that's it

currently on a break until I dont know when, but probably until reset

Since you've a program that generates the sequence for you, try graphing cumulative LP or FEP requirements. You'll very quickly see that it's not linear. How much FEP total do you need to get 1 FEP increase? How much total for 2?

this is how my LP calculator works

it uses a loop; if I tell it to calculate the added together value of x first values it adds together x first values and stops adding more at xth value
it does something like this for bigger and smaller sequence, so when it substracts the smaller added together value from the bigger added together value, it is as if it counted the bigger added together value without the beggining values of sequence, but only the last that are the ones you need to add to increase your stat to certain desired level

but it turned out to be useless as back then(2-4 years ago I don't remember) I didn't know that you can use scroll above stat for fastly increasing your stat, I just kept clicking on the + button a lot of times to see how much LP is needed, which took some time, and was why I even created such program

[terechgracz]

MadNomad please check out arithmetic progression and stop this cringe xD.

[MadNomad]

MadNomad please check out arithmetic progression and stop this cringe xD.

this is exactly what I was talking about

but perhaps let's get back to the topic?

what do you think of this?

in salem there is a skill that allows you to offer a ransom that teleports you to their hearth fire equivalent when you are knocked out

this would give an option to run away(sometimes, if allowed by the winner) for those who have used mrage and lost

what if we had such skill where the ransom would be 10% of someones total LP, it is 10 times as much as from skull, and if needed it would be subtracted from the losers highest or chosen stat in case they wouldn't have it in free to use LP

[telum12]

MadNomad please check out arithmetic progression and stop this cringe xD.

this is exactly what I was talking about

The sum of an arithmetic series is known. It's S_n=(n/2)*(a_n+a_1). As I've said so many fucking times it's insane you still don't get it, the resulting sum is polynomial.

Look at this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_%2B_2_%2B_3_%2B_4_%2B_%E2%8B%AF

Do you notice that this series is n(n+1)/2? Do you notice that this is (n^2+n)/2. Do you notice that there's a n^2 in there? Do you realise that n^2 is polynomial, not linear?

-----

Also your idea on LP shit is probably trash. No one cares about 10% of your spruce-tier LP, and would be easily abuse-able by having alts study and then surrender to you.