Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby Zentetsuken » Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:25 am

pvpers should be punished with difficult and unforgiving mechanics if they want to engage in this content

-1 nothing should be implemented to make pvping easier, ever

just make a bot alt bot each type of stat, isn't that what you guys do anyways?
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby telum12 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:21 am

Why do people always surprise-pikachu-face when faced with the realization that stats give you an advantage? That is the case in 99% of games.

You should know, however, that there are very important properties of stats in this game: Hard-limits, diminishing returns, and equalization.

- Hard-limits: Things such as agi cd reductions/improvements have hard limits to them.
- Diminishing returns: The amount of gain you receive from str, con, quality, ua/mc all significantly diminish the higher the numbers are.
- *** Example: 200 str vs. 100 str is 19% more damage. 1200 vs. 1100 is 2% more damage. (Note: To get the 19% damage bonus you need to double the other person's str.) Pommfritz's 2800 str vs. your 500 would amount to 54% more damage. That's a pretty decent chunk more, but it's much less than you'd think given the HUGE disparity in stats.
- Equalization: ua/mc equalize between people, meaning that if you have 300 ua and Pommfritz has 600, you will be treated as if you had 600 ua too. It's very difficult for ua/mc differences to matter, unless you are heavily out-LP'd. Even then, attack weights are third-rooted.

What you should also remember is that the requirements for higher stats is polynomial. Going from 500 ua to 1000 ua requires a lot more LP than 0 -> 500. The same goes for FEP requirements.

If someone has 6x more stats than you because they eat more and spent more time playing (note: That's a lot more than 6x the amount of FEP you ate), and that gives them a 50% increased damage on you, it doesn't seem that unfair...
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby Massa » Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:49 am

Vraatjuh wrote:
Massa wrote:So I'm a farmville veteran and I just found this game that has farming in it. It's advertised as a hardcore permadeath survival MMO and apparently there's like murder, disease, people can attack your house and stuff.

Can we remove this superfluous stuff and just keep the farming? It's super inconvenient. All I want to see is the funny number on my garbage pink turnips go up. Now please excuse me as I sink months into a PvP game despite hating PvP/conflict while trying to gut its sole shred of success.

Seriously though what the fuck is with these ideas? Don't walk into the forest if you hate trees. There are tons of other games where you can pointlessly and safely raise a funny number. Try cookie clicker or something. This game's ultimate goal is to simulate conflict.


Maybe it's not the fact that people don't like conflict, but just don't like the stupidity of getting months of work erased by a single no-lifer.
The whole reason this debate has started again lately is because of some snail person constantly bragging about murdering random noobs, just because he takes satisfaction from ruining other peoples day. And the fact that he has no life and has the time to do this for hours a day, doesn't help.

90% of the people complaining just want to get rid of these shenanigans. And 'get gud' is not a proper solution.

This games ultimate goal is also not to simulate conflict. It's just a current byproduct to prevent abuse, as stated by Jorb himself.

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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby MadNomad » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:59 pm

telum12 wrote:200 str vs. 100 str is 19% more damage


200 str is roughly 41% more damage than 100 str (141% of it)

2800 str is roughly 136% more damage than 500 str (236% of it)

but only for unarmed attacks

you can't calculate the damage for weapons with just strength, you also need quality(and type) of weapon(and type of attack) for those

for unarmed attacks the formula for caltulating damage is: (percentage of opening)² * multiplier for specific attack (for example punch has 10 and knock it's teeth out has 30) * square root of your (strength/10)
(I confirmed this by hitting a fox with knock its teeth out at opening of 0.39 with alt that had 60 str and the fox got 11 damage as expected, test something on a fox or an alt and you will see that my formula for damage of UA attacks is right)

for attacks with weapons the formulas for calculating damage are here:
https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Hirdsman%27s_Sword
https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Battleax ... welfth_Bay
https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Bronze_Sword
https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Boar_Spear
https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Fyrdsman%27s_Sword

do note that any of these damages of weapon also have to be multiplied by (percentage of opening)² , so at low openings the damage is always going to be drastically lower for both weapon and unarmed attacks

if you want to know the multiplier for unarmed or weapon attack you can just see it in the ingame menu on the list of attacks you know

also why is 50% advantage in damage per hit not unfair when it gives obvious win to the side that has it? it is not that low number as well, and that would be(if your values for strength were correct) just the advantage from higher strength and not counting the advantage from other stats being better. of course they deserved this advantage by spending their time ingame, but my fight with that would still be insanity and crazyness and obvious loss for me

indeed there are diminishing returns from getting higher and higher stats, but the difference between lets say 100 and 150 or 1000 and 1500 are still high (only for stats that are not UA, not sure about MC in that sense)

you were probably right about half of ua having the same weight as 1 ua because they changed it in some patch some time ago(if i remember correctly, I don't remember cause I am on a break from the game, tell me if I am wrong) but other higher stats would still do the job and with unfair advantage I wouldn't have any chance

for agility everything is of course calculated differently than for other stats, but I do not remember how

con is of course (square root of (con divided by 10)) multiplied by 100 - first divide, then find square root, then multiply

for MC and UA I don't remember how attack weight is calculated

stats should indeed remain with a high impact on the outcome, but they should in no case mean sure win or sure loss with no skill involved

telum12 wrote:What you should also remember is that the requirements for higher stats is polynomial


how?

I thought it was sequentional
for LP stats: sequence of 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500 and so on until it ends somewhere
for FEP stats: sequence of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and so on until it ends somewhere

I have even done a simple program in C++ for calculating LP requirement for certain stat while having certain level of stat (it substracts smaller sequence from the bigger sequence, the smaller one describing LP used on your current level of stat, the bigger being the LP used to get the level of stat you want if you wanted to raise it from the stat level of 1)

telum12 wrote:Going from 500 ua to 1000 ua requires a lot more LP than 0 -> 500. The same goes for FEP requirements.


this is only a good way of preventing more ridiculous condition of combat in game than we have now
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby MadNomad » Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:54 pm

MadNomad wrote:in salem there is a skill that allows you to offer a ransom that teleports you to their hearth fire equivalent when you are knocked out


could we add such skill where the ransom would be 2% (or other proper value, but I think this value is nice as it isn't too much, but still more LP than a hearthling skull gives) of your LP? I think it would be nice to prevent dying sometimes this way and also give some new value to winning in PVP

this would give an option to run away(sometimes, if allowed by the winner) for those who have used mrage and lost

SnuggleSnail wrote:
MadNomad wrote:
SnuggleSnail wrote:learn to fight or die

the game is not about learning to fight, it does not involve skill, it is about having ridiculously higher stats


murderous rage 1v1 me on a char with higher stats, shitter


it's funny that you expect me to believe that you would bring a character with lower stats than mine, also thanks for the ad personam insult, it was necessary
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby Pommfritz » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:24 pm

2% lol xd

also go 1v1 Snail you can trust him, should be easy win for you if your claim is true.
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby MadNomad » Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:53 pm

Pommfritz wrote:2% lol xd


what other value would you suggest? it was just an example. Do note, that it is important to balance such value correctly, as for someone who does a lot of PVP it will mean significant stat losses or gains. and thus it shouldn't be too powerful, perhaps I am being a bit too noob-friendly though

Pommfritz wrote:also go 1v1 Snail you can trust him


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

probably one of the last people on this forum that I would trust

Pommfritz wrote:should be easy win for you if your claim is true.


you can literally confirm this by making a spar with anyone while both of the sides are not being terrible and have basic childish "skills"
anyone can confirm this if they want to and are not being terrible

some other guy said:

Nightdawg wrote:1v1's are objectively retarded and you all know it's just a stat check for low opening cleaves once both players know how to 1v1.


isn't this the same that I am saying?

both people use powerful attack at low opening, but one of the low openings is higher that the other low opening, because one person has better stats

some moves are better than the other, and once both sides realise which those are, they will use those, those best moves

if you have the basic "skill" of pressing a button instantly instead of dumbly waiting 5 seconds(or whatever other easily avoidable amount of time) to press it, this is going to be the outcome

so yeah, it's not skillless, you need basic childish level of "skill" (that everyone has [or maybe not lololololol :D], so it ends up being as if noone had any), but it is so meaningless requirement that I didn't even really mean it's a significant "skill"
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby telum12 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:49 am

MadNomad wrote:wrong str formula


The reason your str numbers are wrong is that you are using the UA formula. 90% of damage in PVP is done via cleaves, which uses a different formula (str multi = str^(1/4)/10^(1/2)).

Idk what your wall of text after that is trying to say

MadNomad wrote:for MC and UA I don't remember how attack weight is calculated


I literally said so in my post

MadNomad wrote:I thought it was sequentional
for LP stats: sequence of 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500 and so on until it ends somewhere
for FEP stats: sequence of 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and so on until it ends somewhere


That's not how sequences work...

\sum_{i=1}^{n} 100*i = 100 * \sum_{i=1}^{n} i = n(n+1)/2

\sum_{i=10}^{n} i = \sum_{i=1}^{n} i - (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9) = n(n+1)/2 - 45

i.e., both LP and FEP requirements grow polynomially with n.

So, if you're at k str and someone wants to double your cleave damage they need n str s.t.:

2 = sqrt(sqrt(n)/10)/sqrt(sqrt(k)/10) <=> k^(1/4)*2 = n^(1/4) <=> 16k = n

i.e. they need 16x your str. Okay, but how much FEP will 16x more str take? :

n(n+1)/2 - 45|_{n=16k} = 16k(16k+1)/2 - 45 = 128k^2 + 8k - 45

If you're not sure, that's a fuckton more.

So, if you have 500 str you'd need a total of:

FEP = 500(500 + 1)/2 - 45 = 125 205

But in order to double your damage, your enemy needs 16*500 = 8000 str. How much FEP will that take?

FEP = 8000(8000+1)/2-45 = 32 003 955

That's 255x the amount of FEP you need 'till 500 str. And that's just to 2x your damage.

MadNomad wrote:I have even done a simple program in C++ for calculating LP requirement for certain stat while having certain level of stat (it substracts smaller sequence from the bigger sequence, the smaller one describing LP used on your current level of stat, the bigger being the LP used to get the level of stat you want if you wanted to raise it from the stat level of 1)


It's insane that you can be so wrong and then talk about how you're writing a program that would prove you wrong.

You would benefit more from reading a book about analysis. In particular, the parts about sequences and series. You don't need computer programs to solve this, since these types of sequences are rather well-solved already.

MadNomad wrote:it's funny that you expect me to believe that you would bring a character with lower stats than mine


Snail would 100% do that. It can also be done in Valhalla without any risks, although you would definitely have an advantage there due to the lack of running-related shit.

MadNomad wrote:also thanks for the ad personam insult, it was necessary


jfc you're so cringe. I don't understand why people think they sound smart if they start naming shit in latin when there's no benefit to it. You're just a pretentious shitter. It's like looking up bigger words on thesaurus. There's a reason these words are used, and they're very specific. If using big boi words isn't making your sentence easier to understand, you're probably just an ass.

Like you can literally just remove "ad personam" from the sentence and it's the exact same fucking sentence. The only reason you added it in is because you think it makes you look smart. The second-hand cringe is so bad rn.

MadNomad wrote:probably one of the last people on this forum that I would trust


Based off of what?

MadNomad wrote:you can literally confirm this by making a spar with anyone while both of the sides are not being terrible and have basic childish "skills"
anyone can confirm this if they want to and are not being terrible


p sure snail's point is that you're probably a trash player and the reason he can beat you isn't because of stats, but because you're bad. In case your smooth brain still can't comprehend the point, removing stats doesn't solve the problems you're facing.
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby DoctorCookie » Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:45 am

telum12 wrote:Why do people always surprise-pikachu-face when faced with the realization that stats give you an advantage? That is the case in 99% of games.

You should know, however, that there are very important properties of stats in this game: Hard-limits, diminishing returns, and equalization.

- Hard-limits: Things such as agi cd reductions/improvements have hard limits to them.
- Diminishing returns: The amount of gain you receive from str, con, quality, ua/mc all significantly diminish the higher the numbers are.
- *** Example: 200 str vs. 100 str is 19% more damage. 1200 vs. 1100 is 2% more damage. (Note: To get the 19% damage bonus you need to double the other person's str.) Pommfritz's 2800 str vs. your 500 would amount to 54% more damage. That's a pretty decent chunk more, but it's much less than you'd think given the HUGE disparity in stats.
- Equalization: ua/mc equalize between people, meaning that if you have 300 ua and Pommfritz has 600, you will be treated as if you had 600 ua too. It's very difficult for ua/mc differences to matter, unless you are heavily out-LP'd. Even then, attack weights are third-rooted.

What you should also remember is that the requirements for higher stats is polynomial. Going from 500 ua to 1000 ua requires a lot more LP than 0 -> 500. The same goes for FEP requirements.

If someone has 6x more stats than you because they eat more and spent more time playing (note: That's a lot more than 6x the amount of FEP you ate), and that gives them a 50% increased damage on you, it doesn't seem that unfair...


Nothing you said is illogical or wrong. I would say that I spend a few hours, 5 days a week, playing Haven. I play with similar people. People that have responsibilities. Most of these types of people spend their free time doing things they like to do. I would argue that that amount of time is the most anyone that is above the age of 18 should spend on a game, give or take. If you are saying that, very simply, if you are not willing to treat this like a job you have no right to play and do not deserve a voice, then so be it. It seems that that is your point. I know you point out diminishing returns, but those are only at the high end. At some point guys like you will have to move on for fiscal reasons. Are you saying that a normal playerbase does not deserve to play this game? By the way the only ones that keep saying stats have no advantage is you and yours.
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Re: Idea for PVP --- Surrendering

Postby Phaen » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:43 am

Ok but back to surrendering - I'm against what the OP is describing. Being able to nope out of pvp like that isnt even what surrendering means. Forfeiting a fight should pur your life in the hands of your attacker.

Something more like this:

Pressing the surrender emote causes a white flag to momentarily wave above your head. Any weapons in your hands get flung on the ground ~5 tiles away in a random direction. Your character poses with its hands up above their head. You gain a REALLY LONG combat cooldown.

How does this help you get away? It doesn't. At least not directly. You have communicated to your attacker that you aren't a threat and it's up to them what to do about that.
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