Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

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Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby VDZ » Sat Oct 07, 2023 7:29 am

Announced plans
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In the World 15 announcement thread, the following intended change was announced:
jorb wrote:
  • To extend the usefulness of Sketches in World 15, we intend to make it so that a total of up to two sketches can be applied to any mundane container (e.g. Chests, Wicker Baskets, Cupboards, &c), to extend that inventory in size by one row, and/or one column.

This seems innocuous enough at first glance, but it's an unprecedented change in Haven's business model: it allows players to gain in-game advantages by paying cash in an uncapped manner; the more cash you pay, the more advantage you get.

The value of portable containers, and thus the advantage gained through cash payments
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The announcement mentions wicker baskets and cupboards, but let's be real: nobody is going to pay $5 (two sketches bought separately) or $1.20 (bulk discount when committing to the $30 purchase of 50 sketches) to gain 17 slots in a cupboard when they can instead just spend 8 boards to gain 64 by building another cupboard. Likewise, nobody's going to expand a Wicker Basket to 4x3 for real-life cash. The real use case for container expansion is obviously portable containers, which scale very steeply in material costs due to how useful they are:
  • A crate (5x3, 15 slots) costs 4 boards.
  • Upgrading to a wooden chest (6x6, 36 slots) costs 4 nuggets.
  • Upgrading to a large chest (6x8, 48 slots) costs 2 bars of hard metal, 4 leather, 3 bone glue and 2 rope (you could argue the increased metal cost is 'only' 16 nuggets rather than 2 bars, though hard metal is a big difference too).
  • Upgrading to an exquisite chest (8x8, 64 slots) costs 2 bars of precious metal and 2 silk cloth, a hefty price for the ultimate portable container.

Now let's compare this to upgrading those same containers with two sketches (i.e., real-life cash; let's assume we all spend $30 to make upgrades cost $1.20 each rather than paying $5 per container):
  • A crate becomes 6x4 (24 slots), clearly inferior to the wooden chest. Not much of a problem.
  • A wooden chest becomes 7x7 (49 slots), superior to the large chest! This means for $1.20 RL money you effectively get 2 bars of hard metal, 4 leather, 3 bone glue and 2 rope in-game. Notably, this also gets you LC capacity way before you reach hard metal (i.e. early on you can only get this advantage by paying real money).
  • A large chest becomes 7x9 (63 slots), almost the same as the exquisite chest. By paying $1.20 in real cash you effectively get 2 precious metal and 2 silk cloth.
  • An exquisite chest becomes 9x9 (81 slots). There is no comparison for this; this new ultimate portable container can only be crafted with real cash. If the previous jumps went '4 nuggets' -> '2 bars of hard metal + some effort stuff' -> '2 bars of precious metal and 2 silk cloth', how priceless would this new premium chest be in in-game materials?

Why is this worse than verification and subscription? Don't they also give an advantage for real cash?
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First, let me start off by saying I don't consider Haven a free-to-play game. Yes, technically you can get started for free, but any serious player will soon pay for verification and a sub because you're at a serious disadvantage without them. This is presumably by design; in world 8 when subscriptions were introduced, they were mandatory for playing and non-paying players got essentially a trial version, being restricted to a limited number of hours per week to play; the current system is an evolution of that 'casual play for free, payment required for serious play' system. As such, it's much more like the traditional MMO business model: buy the game, then pay a monthly fee to keep playing. Haven just has a very generous trial system, allowing players who wouldn't pay anyways to play as well (but at a disadvantage).

So how are the (significant) verification+sub advantages different from sketch-based container expansion, then? One simple but crucial detail: Spending-related advantage is capped, and at a very low cost. After spending the initial $15, you can only spend $7 per month ($4.17 per month on a yearly sub) to gain the exact same advantages every other serious player has. No matter how much more money you throw at the devs, you're not getting any more in-game advantage. Importantly, this also means others are not getting any advantages you aren't getting by paying more than you.

Uncapped paid-for advantages change this dynamic entirely. Even if I spend $1.20, I would not get the same advantage as someone who paid twice as much, and even if I paid twice as much, the person who paid four times as much still gained more advantage than me; there is no limit to this, and no matter how much you spend, you will be at a disadvantage compared to someone who spent more. Now, there is some practical cap on this, as at some point you have no use for more cash shop-exclusive ultimate containers. But it still raises the required spending to not be at a disadvantage compared to others (possibly to a significant degree already with this alone), and it opens the way for more future pay-to-win additions, each slightly raising the real-money price you must pay to not be at a disadvantage. (It's also worth noting that any such purchases must be re-bought with real money if stolen or otherwise lost; getting robbed in-game will cost you real-life money. This was extremely controversial when it happened with hats (which don't even bestow any in-game advantage!) when they were first introduced, which is why the system was changed to make hats unlootable. Making cash shop containers unstealable would obviously not be feasible, so this will definitely be a problem.)

Haven's business model
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Pay-to-win microtransactions are associated with free-to-play games, in the context of which they are considered greedy. But in the context of Haven, it's even worse. The current ways you can spend money on Haven are:
  • Verification - As explained above, this is equivalent to buying a game. Gives you significant advantages, but only needs to be purchased once.
  • Bronze subscriptions and subscription tokens - Equivalent to a subscription fee in pay-to-play MMOs. Mandatory to not be at a disadvantage, but it's a relatively low monthly cost and you can choose not to pay and still play at a disadvantage. Continued dev work requires continued revenue, and there aren't enough new players coming in to get that with only the one-time fee.
  • Hats and sketches - Equivalent to cosmetic skins and costumes in other games, where they are sometimes controversial and seen as greedy. Fortunately, the Haven community just accepts them as a harmless additional revenue stream; if it adds revenue without impacting game balance, it's only beneficial.
  • Silver and Gold subs - Equivalent to donations. (I'd compare it to Patreon, but Patreon subs often give a more tangible benefit.) Players get only a token reward that does not impact gameplay (the hats). As stated on the store page, the existence of subscriptions tiers is "mostly there to allow you to throw more money at [the devs] if you feel like it".
So we've got a game that asks for a purchase cost and a subscription fee with additional cosmetic microtransactions that also asks for donations...which would now also expect us to pay for in-game advantages (or, seen competitively, payment to not have a relative disadvantage). Were this only a game with an upfront purchase cost, advantage-granting microtransactions would already be seen as greedy in most gaming communities (see e.g. the "sense of pride and accomplishment" controversy with reboot-Battlefront II; that was in a game that allowed grinding as an alternative, even). Having it on top of a purchase cost + a subscription cost would be beyond greedy. But what really ticks me off is having this added to a game that asks for donations.

It's not that I can't afford this new added cost. The devs know I've thrown way more money at this game than is reasonable, or useful for game advantage. Being a hermit with not much stuff I could easily afford to boost my cupboards and wicker baskets if I really wanted to, and in fact I'd be cheaper off excessively buying in-game advantage instead of donating. But I didn't spend all that money to gain unfair advantages over other players; I spent it out of goodwill, because I love this game and want it to continue being hosted, maintained and developed. The silver and gold subs part of your business model rely on customer goodwill; pay-to-win microtransactions are on the opposite end of the spectrum, offered by companies that typically only have purely commercial relations with their customers (and where management often just sees customers as resources to be extracted; and likewise customers are unlikely to care for the company itself, they just want their fix which necessitates payment). The two models are in conflict; you cannot simultaneously offer pay-to-win microtransactions and expect to receive donations. By charging people to not be at a disadvantage relative to others you ruin this goodwill, and I at least would switch to paying just what's necessary to play the game. And I expect I am not the only one who would be disillusioned by this switch in business model.

Alternatives if you really just want more sketches to be used
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Sketches, at least as far as has been communicated to us and how they've worked so far, serve a cosmetic function, letting players achieve aesthetic possibilities that would not (reasonably) be possible without the microtransaction. There still tons of options in this design space. For some examples:
  • People have been asking for more options for player character customization for a long time now. More hair colors? Apply a sketch to your character to get new hair colors currently not selectable. Sick of the handful of available hair styles? Get a premium-exclusive hairstyle for the price of one sketch. Want to change that ugly face? Spend one sketch to change it into a different ugly face!
  • Equipment likewise could be recolored at the price of one sketch per item. Maybe even different textures to have effectively premium-exclusive cosmetic variants of gear (similar to how you can have your own weapon skins in e.g. CS:GO).
  • Recoloring and retexturing doesn't need to be limited to the player. Spend a sketch to get a premium-exclusive texture on your cupboard, on your house, on your bench, on your stone walls, even on your palisades and just to troll on your battering rams too!
  • Hell, just ask players for what cosmetic options they're missing in Haven. People are willing to pay premium to make themselves, the things they use or things associated with them look fancy!

There are plenty of alternatives. Please don't go down the pay-to-win route. Economic realities unfortunately make complete equality infeasible (you do need to make money somehow), but keep Haven as level a playing field as is reasonably possible. This change is, in my opinion, the worst decision in all of Haven's history (only the world 8 business model might arguably be worse). Please, please, please reconsider this horrible idea.
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby Sevenless » Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:38 am

I'ma be honest with you man, it doesn't matter.

There's p2w that matters, and there's p2w that doesn't. We have monthly subs that are mandatory to play, which is fine. But the fact that you can trade those tokens for direct ingame advantage is so miles beyond this container thing that it makes the containers utterly meaningless. Would be different if it was more powerful, or one sketch did 10 containers or something, this is very "undertuned" for the $ value.

As someone who has been in a village making tokens from sales, highly doubt we'd ever bother buying sketches for this purpose compared to imaging sales/banners/capes.
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby gravesmerch » Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:56 pm

if people decide to siege because of containers, then I see a problem, otherwise don't care about extra slots

I'd only remove tokens, they sterilize in-game markets, raise the prices, but for the same reasons it became an untouchable feature, pretty much won't ever change
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby Dawidio123 » Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:40 pm

Sevenless wrote: We have monthly subs that are mandatory to play, which is fine. But the fact that you can trade those tokens for direct ingame advantage is so miles beyond this container thing that it makes the containers utterly meaningless.

Honestly people who use tokens to buy stuff are already so far behind and lowkey not very smart that i'd hardly call this pay to win since they clearly aren't winning, before or after spending 20 tokens at a market buying faction's trash. But yeah you are right about the sketches being underpowered compared to their value, i don't think any group will actually spend their money to buy sketches for this very purpose. Although if i see a sketched cupboard at a base i'm raiding i will make sure to take it tho.
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby Halbertz » Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:12 pm

This seems innocuous enough at first glance, but it's an unprecedented change in Haven's: now you need to check every container in random snekks. Every check could take up to 3 seconds. Snekk has 16 inventory slots - checking whole thing could take up to 48(!) seconds. With one simple decision you just took away almost a minute of players lives. And you will never know if the thing wasn't checked already, so you could second check it paying developers another minute of live that you could spend on better things in this live: hat's extortion, chipping boulders in mine or traveling for 48 minutes on empty map.
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby Sevenless » Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:07 pm

gravesmerch wrote:if people decide to siege because of containers, then I see a problem, otherwise don't care about extra slots

I'd only remove tokens, they sterilize in-game markets, raise the prices, but for the same reasons it became an untouchable feature, pretty much won't ever change


Anyone capable of siege would be smart enough to know there's no way in hell it's worth sitting 24hrs outside a village and spend gold bars just to get a slightly bigger chest.

Also pockets+bundles have balooned inventories so much that you barely feel inventory space crunch in my experience.

YOU CAN HOLD 900 PIECES OF MEAT IN A PLAYER'S INVENTORY.
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby VDZ » Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:22 pm

gravesmerch wrote:if people decide to siege because of containers, then I see a problem, otherwise don't care about extra slots

Three words: "Hat or die." They're not going to perform a full siege over a couple bucks worth of premium items, but precedent has shown that players will attack others over the promise of real-money-value rewards (and that this has incentivized griefing, specifically going out to find people to hat-or-die). And unlike hat-or-die, you can't refuse to give away your premium item here. Maybe they'll just attack anyone wearing an expensive hat just for the chance of there being a premium container in their boat?

Sevenless wrote:But the fact that you can trade those tokens for direct ingame advantage is so miles beyond this container thing that it makes the containers utterly meaningless. Would be different if it was more powerful, or one sketch did 10 containers or something, this is very "undertuned" for the $ value.

gravesmerch wrote:I'd only remove tokens, they sterilize in-game markets, raise the prices, but for the same reasons it became an untouchable feature, pretty much won't ever change

RMT is inevitable. If it weren't tokens, people would be paying in hats. If it weren't hats, people would just PayPal each other the money to buy in-game items. The fact that out-of-game factors can get people to help you in-game is impossible to feasibly fix. At best you can argue the devs are making RMT too easy. (Which this change would also make worse, by the way: it makes sketches a more viable RMT currency, leaving the problem even if theoretically premium item trade were disabled; you can't forbid exchanging upgraded containers.)

The big difference between RMT and P2W, as Dawidio123 hinted at, is that this advantage-for-money comes from the game itself; it is part of the design, not an unintended side effect, that you can gain unfair advantages over other players through real cash payments, and this advantage can go beyond what RMT can do (in this case you can get better containers than what the top factions can craft).

Sevenless wrote:I'ma be honest with you man, it doesn't matter.

There's p2w that matters, and there's p2w that doesn't. We have monthly subs that are mandatory to play, which is fine. But the fact that you can trade those tokens for direct ingame advantage is so miles beyond this container thing that it makes the containers utterly meaningless. Would be different if it was more powerful, or one sketch did 10 containers or something, this is very "undertuned" for the $ value.

As someone who has been in a village making tokens from sales, highly doubt we'd ever bother buying sketches for this purpose compared to imaging sales/banners/capes.

Dawidio123 wrote:But yeah you are right about the sketches being underpowered compared to their value, i don't think any group will actually spend their money to buy sketches for this very purpose. Although if i see a sketched cupboard at a base i'm raiding i will make sure to take it tho.

So are you seriously arguing real money spending should give more advantage in order to make this system work? Because if people aren't motivated to use sketches on this, the system is pointless. Adding an effect to sketches only makes sense if that makes people spend more sketches. But the moment sketches do provide their money's worth in value, there's an in-game advantage that requires real-cash payment. There is no way to balance this to make it simultaneously useful and not a significant unfair paid-for advantage. (And if people are okay with paying for a minor advantage here, is that a green light for the devs to add more cash-only minor advantages?)

Though I'm sure you will change your mind about whether it's worth it if it gets implemented and you get to play with it. If people are willing to spend the resources to build a large chest, people will definitely spend $1.20 to get an improved LC before the LC can even be crafted (or when low on hard metal). People are even spending precious metals and silk; why spend that when you can pay $1.20 instead? And again, the ultimate portable container would only be craftable by paying $1.20 real-life cash. If you've already spent the precious metal and silk to craft an exquisite chest, $1.20 is a low price to make it truly ultimate - if you happen to be fortunate enough IRL that $1.20 is nothing to you (reminder: not everyone lives in a rich country and has a stable income), otherwise get fucked.

If nothing else, it at least devalues in-game progress, as it does in other games offering pay-to-win advantages that are comparable to the results of (or can be unlocked by) in-game effort. How many hoops did I just jump through to craft this LC? How much time did I spend on this? I could've skipped all of this effort (and gotten a better result!) by just paying $1.20; did I really spend this much time and effort to avoid a $1.20 payment, when at work I earn that much in a fraction of the time every day?
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby Dawidio123 » Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:21 pm

VDZ wrote:
Dawidio123 wrote:But yeah you are right about the sketches being underpowered compared to their value, i don't think any group will actually spend their money to buy sketches for this very purpose. Although if i see a sketched cupboard at a base i'm raiding i will make sure to take it tho.

So are you seriously arguing real money spending should give more advantage in order to make this system work? Because if people aren't motivated to use sketches on this, the system is pointless. Adding an effect to sketches only makes sense if that makes people spend more sketches. But the moment sketches do provide their money's worth in value, there's an in-game advantage that requires real-cash payment. There is no way to balance this to make it simultaneously useful and not a significant unfair paid-for advantage. (And if people are okay with paying for a minor advantage here, is that a green light for the devs to add more cash-only minor advantages?)

Oh no, i'm completely against this change. I agree that's a bad precedent to give any ingame advantage for money (premium+verification is fine imo tho because it basically means the game is p2p like wow or wurm), that could lead to worse things later on (sketch on backpacks, sketch on creels/wickerpickers, etc.).
I just agree that this change won't really matter other than the theoretical consequences it could have in the future as I (or anyone i play with), don't consider this to be something we'll be to actually using when we can just spam out more small chests (If it was another storage tab on the sketched container tho...).
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby Nightdawg » Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:48 pm

You people will give away your 200$ hats to some trash fighters that bully you, but the second there's a reason to spend money on sketches, you cry.

But tbh I don't care if this change stays or not either way, I'm just saying.
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Re: Sketch container expansion is P2W, a very bad idea

Postby VDZ » Sat Oct 07, 2023 7:32 pm

Nightdawg wrote:You people will give away your 200$ hats to some trash fighters that bully you, but the second there's a reason to spend money on sketches, you cry.

But tbh I don't care if this change stays or not either way, I'm just saying.

I have never given in to hat-or-die (would rather die than encourage them, though in practice they only KO and steal my gear), nor done any other kind of RMT. I always apply a sketch to my snekkja sail and have occasionally used it on other things (e.g. barter stands), and would be willing to spend sketches for cosmetic options I actually like, such as finally getting properly long straight hair.

I cry because with this change sketches (i.e.: further cash payment) would be mandatory to not be at a disadvantage, similar to verification and subscription but without limit. I would actually save money by going for a lower tier sub and using real-money container expansion. I just think such a business model is terrible for the game.
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