Forager credo and bunny slippers in PVP

[Dawidio123]

Remove both forager credo's and bunny slipper's increase to speed (At least forager, i hate doing credos and if it's just bunnies it's not THAT bad, changed my mind, bunny slippers need to go too since i don't want to use a hotkey to switch from plate shoes into sanic shoes every time i see a bunny, fuck em).
I might be in the minority here but i just don't like clicking critters during a fight. And most of all I don't like needing a certain credo and shoes to even be able to participate.

Chasing critters in general is very client dependent (ie. making them bigger) and I'm guessing private clients have some nicer things as far as critter clicking goes (aim assist at least, probably more). By default if we ignore reaction time and client features (and even if we don't it's still true for competent players), they give an innate advantage to the defender same as speed boosts do, but it's for an entire group and not only an individual.

So i have two alternate suggestions one more radical and the other one a bit less:

1.Remove the speed increases from chasing critters entirely, and instead, make speed boosts apply speed to party members (in certain range obviously), this way there is still something to help entire groups escape but that's not dependent on right clicking a rat or a bunny. This would also make pvp (mostly running away) more playable on more vanilla-like clients as running into speed boosts doesn't require reaction time (although seeing hitboxes does help), especially if it's a group effort. Also no more stupid forager + bunny slipper requirement, especially since armor will be VERY IMPORTANT, thus a need for a hotkey to switch into sanic shoes from plate shoes (We just never used plate shoes tbh, wasn't worth the effort but I'm sure some people do and will continue to do so as long as it's the meta way to play).

2.Do not remove the speed increase from chasing critters, just make it so you have it when you have some skill or something (Or have it by default, without any credo or slippers), i just think having a credo requirement and shoes requirement is fundamentally stupid. And while i dislike chasing critters, it's not the worst offender of this whole system, and it does allow you to sometimes juke people that are chasing you. This way you can preserve the "skill" (debatable) part of chasing critters, while removing the shitty requirements that make pvp meta seem a bit mental.

Just move the speed increase to a skill or give it to everyone by default, having it on slippers + credo is just fundamentally bad.

[Aerona]

To remove the benefit of chasing critters while trying to escape from an enemy, the simple solution would be to just remove the speed bonus from chasing a small animal if the forager is also being pursued. Makes sense that it would be difficult to concentrate on chasing rabbits or catching butterflies while a boar is charging at you...

That said, a speed boost from being pursued by a major threat makes sense, too. Literally running for your life is a classic. It wouldn't be as micro-intensive or weird. The pursuer could slow down their prey by not targeting them directly, but that would come with its own cost, especially in the case where they also have a speed bonus only when pursuing.

If the bunny slippers give a greater speed boost while being pursued, that would make them less useful for those who want to engage in PvP and more useful for those who want to avoid it, so that finding someone wearing them would more of an indicator they're likely to bolt and less just that they're optimized for PvP.

[VDZ]

I think having requiring players to get a specific credo as well as requiring them to always wear a specific piece of gear when outside, as a basic surival requirement, is just poor design in general. In particular they interact really poorly with their respective systems (other footwear outside is near-useless, and every forager-unrelated credo takes more effort to do because you get the penalty for getting the required forager first).

[Dawidio123]

To remove the benefit of chasing critters while trying to escape from an enemy, the simple solution would be to just remove the speed bonus from chasing a small animal if the forager is also being pursued. Makes sense that it would be difficult to concentrate on chasing rabbits or catching butterflies while a boar is charging at you...
That said, a speed boost from being pursued by a major threat makes sense, too. Literally running for your life is a classic. It wouldn't be as micro-intensive or weird. The pursuer could slow down their prey by not targeting them directly, but that would come with its own cost, especially in the case where they also have a speed bonus only when pursuing.
If the bunny slippers give a greater speed boost while being pursued, that would make them less useful for those who want to engage in PvP and more useful for those who want to avoid it, so that finding someone wearing them would more of an indicator they're likely to bolt and less just that they're optimized for PvP.

I already either argued with you or some other guy who made a similar point to this. The issue with it is that i don't think you can reliably define who is chasing who in this combat system.
The idea i heard about is that if you peace out an enemy you are being chased, and that's just dumb because people would just deaggro each other until they catch up. Would also encourage the creation of new custom client features to make it easier.
If you define the one who is escaping as the one who aggro'd there are similar issues in that you will always lose the fight if you aggro first.

Furthermore those systems break down once you have multiple groups in combat, like who is chasing who in 15vs15vs15, you can't expect anyone to peace out every single enemy, and what if they bring an alt that aggros you the moment you find a critter so you lose the speed boost until you peace them out, etc.

[Aerona]

Right, not me. I assumed the pursuer was just whoever of the two initiated the combat. If whoever initiated the fight loses because they move slower, that seems like evidence that who wins a fight depends far too heavily on who moves faster, which would be its own problem to solve. The idea of there being a disadvantage that goes to the one that starts a fight is fine, but movement speed should only be the deciding factor when movement is the point, not when the point is to land hits.

In a massive fight, with what I'm imagining, the movement speed bonus would only apply to those who've been targeted by others the game considers more powerful than them; those who haven't been targeted or who the game considers more powerful than any of their opponents would move at their normal rate. It sounds like other changes would be required, first, so that movement speed is less important (and moving is less desirable) when there's an actual fight going on instead of a chase.

[SnuggleSnail]

Don't rework combat for the 8th time for no reason. Fix the things that need fixing before touching the things that don't need fixing.

[Aerona]

As it is I have no motivation to engage in PvP, so I suppose, in a sense, I would like to see other parts of the game prioritized. Then again, that's because the way PvP works right now makes no sense, so it seems that there would be a reason to rework it.

[DonVelD]

retarded

[HasseKebab]

To remove the benefit of chasing critters while trying to escape from an enemy, the simple solution would be to just remove the speed bonus from chasing a small animal if the forager is also being pursued. Makes sense that it would be difficult to concentrate on chasing rabbits or catching butterflies while a boar is charging at you...
That said, a speed boost from being pursued by a major threat makes sense, too. Literally running for your life is a classic. It wouldn't be as micro-intensive or weird. The pursuer could slow down their prey by not targeting them directly, but that would come with its own cost, especially in the case where they also have a speed bonus only when pursuing.
If the bunny slippers give a greater speed boost while being pursued, that would make them less useful for those who want to engage in PvP and more useful for those who want to avoid it, so that finding someone wearing them would more of an indicator they're likely to bolt and less just that they're optimized for PvP.

I already either argued with you or some other guy who made a similar point to this. The issue with it is that i don't think you can reliably define who is chasing who in this combat system.
The idea i heard about is that if you peace out an enemy you are being chased, and that's just dumb because people would just deaggro each other until they catch up. Would also encourage the creation of new custom client features to make it easier.
If you define the one who is escaping as the one who aggro'd there are similar issues in that you will always lose the fight if you aggro first.

Thats not the issue of that suggestion anyway, theres a reason we have 10% increased speed when chasing people: running away is already overpowered so why are we just randomly suggesting buffing running away when thats the issue with forager and slippers; they make running away be in favour the guy running away because they get to see the critters before everyone else and click on them to then just catch any speed buffs and run even further away and escape for free basically.

[Dawidio123]

I mean honestly I would be quite satisfied if the overall system remained the same with the speed increase moved to a skill (Or just given by default to every character, idc) instead of credo+slippers. Like yeah i don't like chasing critters, bite me. But i can live with it as it's not that big of a deal, just turn off all other icons on map and click them there it's fine.
But if i have to switch between plate boots and slippers in combat i will be mad, and now with the hp changes plate boots might actually be kind of a big deal relatively speaking. Not to mention i fucking hate credo, even an easy one like forager.