Rework Rage, Murder, KO

[Barbamaus]

Current state of the game:
- Murder is useless. Nobody gives up their KOP (KO Protection) for the bonus they'd get.
- KOP mostly works if attacker and victim are somewhat balanced. If they both suck it works, if they're both good it mostly works.
- KOP does not work well if the victim is a weak target, since it's too easy to kill them outright (due to low stats/CON and crappy gear)
- Those who actually like fighting risk very little, while those who can't fight are screwed.

Something needs to change
By the say Siege has been updated over the years, it's clear that Devs don't intend to make Haven a game where the stronger prays on the weak. Otherwise we'd still have palibashing and stuff like that.
Following that reasoning, what could be done? Here's a few ideas:
- Option 1. Make PvP deadly again.
Simply put, remove KOP from anyone with Rage. If you're a PvE player, you don't need Rage. If you want to engage in PvP for any reason, including trying to help your allies getting attacked, you put your own life on the line.

- Option 2. Change Murder skill to make it valuable.
1. Murder should unlock some good PvP perks, making it extremely valuable to have for anyone who wants to dominate in PvP.
2. Once you buy the skill, you lose KOP permanently in exchange for the aforementioned bonuses.
3. Rage should no longer allow you to KILL someone. If your last blow would kill your target, make them drop KO with 1HHP instead. This needs to take into account the damage from Concussion (or just not give concussion if KOed this way), or it's useless.

To recap, either remove KOP with Rage, or make Murder interesting and needed for kills.

These changes would work best in tandem with the CON gear fix suggested at the following link, making fighters beefier: https://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=75562

[Dawidio123]

Honestly just the first line "Nobody gives up their KOP (KO Protection) for the bonus they'd get." is enough for me to tell that you have no clue what you are talking about.
There are MANY instances even just this world of confident and competent fighters that run on murderous rage to get a kill (ie. felix was on it during the whole WB siege, sadbear killing noinek, etc.), and yes if you do it correctly and calculate the damage right (hard without knowing other's hp) you can guarantee a kill.
Yeah it's not something you use when you think that you might get downed, but to say that nobody uses it, and that it doesn't get you kills is just ignorant.

[Barbamaus]

Honestly just the first line "Nobody gives up their KOP (KO Protection) for the bonus they'd get." is enough for me to tell that you have no clue what you are talking about.
There are MANY instances even just this world of confident and competent fighters that run on murderous rage to get a kill (ie. felix was on it during the whole WB siege, sadbear killing noinek, etc.), and yes if you do it correctly and calculate the damage right (hard without knowing other's hp) you can guarantee a kill.
Yeah it's not something you use when you think that you might get downed, but to say that nobody uses it, and that it doesn't get you kills is just ignorant.

No need to always be so defensive and call for lies or ignorance; it's called an hyperbole.
There's very few instance of players activating murderous rage, both because it's risky and because KOP doesn't work well so you don't really need it to kill easier targets.
Not sure where you extrapolated the "doesn't get you kills" part from.

Right now Murder is extremely situationally, and only used by a very small % of the player base. Plenty of players don't even buy it since the drawbacks outweight the benefits 9 times out of 10.

So instead of shutting down any pvp-related ideas, how about we work together and find a way to improve it? You won't tell me that PvP is fine as it is right now...

[DDDsDD999]

- Option 1. Make PvP deadly again.
Simply put, remove KOP from anyone with Rage. If you're a PvE player, you don't need Rage. If you want to engage in PvP for any reason, including trying to help your allies getting attacked, you put your own life on the line.

Already had a world with it, it sucked. People just use murder alts to ko/kill PvErs. And in fights people without rage get to body-block, fuel allies, steal speed-buffs, bait aggro, etc without risk. Also people spam huge claims to abuse aggroing from claim not requiring rage.

- Option 2. Change Murder skill to make it valuable.
1. Murder should unlock some good PvP perks, making it extremely valuable to have for anyone who wants to dominate in PvP.
2. Once you buy the skill, you lose KOP permanently in exchange for the aforementioned bonuses.
3. Rage should no longer allow you to KILL someone. If your last blow would kill your target, make them drop KO with 1HHP instead. This needs to take into account the damage from Concussion (or just not give concussion if KOed this way), or it's useless.

This could be interesting, but the perk would need to be really strong to make it worth turning your unkillable titan into an easily killable one. #3 doesn't seem like something jorb would want, and seems kinda unnecessary. Dying in pvp from full HP at the current 40% grievous damage is super difficult for someone who knows how to not die to dumb stuff.

I think it would work better as a temporary buff, replacing murderous rage. E.g. one side wants to win a fight over something and pops it in a fight to make themselves much stronger, and the other side can decide if the fight is worth it and pop it to keep the fight even, but the fight ends up being much riskier for both parties. Murderous rage has the problem of only being useful when already winning the fight.

If the KOP is a permanent skill, being alone and getting randomly ganked by a group seems like a really lame way to die if they didn't even buy murder. Even if you track and counter-gank, they can't die. Having it be a 24h buff + the duration of any outlaw generated during it would kinda fix this.

[Barbamaus]

- Option 1. Make PvP deadly again.
Simply put, remove KOP from anyone with Rage. If you're a PvE player, you don't need Rage. If you want to engage in PvP for any reason, including trying to help your allies getting attacked, you put your own life on the line.

Already had a world with it, it sucked. People just use murder alts to ko/kill PvErs. And in fights people without rage get to body-block, fuel allies, steal speed-buffs, bait aggro, etc without risk. Also people spam huge claims to abuse aggroing from claim not requiring rage.

People without Rage wouldn't be any different than now. The risk is still getting KOed or potentially killed if KOP is bypassed.
The only difference would be to those with Rage, making fights more risky. But they'd still be able to attack non-Rage people, just like they are now.
Same for the claim issue I guess.
On a side note, claims should have way smaller limits imo... but that's a different discussion.

- Option 2. Change Murder skill to make it valuable.
1. Murder should unlock some good PvP perks, making it extremely valuable to have for anyone who wants to dominate in PvP.
2. Once you buy the skill, you lose KOP permanently in exchange for the aforementioned bonuses.
3. Rage should no longer allow you to KILL someone. If your last blow would kill your target, make them drop KO with 1HHP instead. This needs to take into account the damage from Concussion (or just not give concussion if KOed this way), or it's useless.

This could be interesting, but the perk would need to be really strong to make it worth turning your unkillable titan into an easily killable one. #3 doesn't seem like something jorb would want, and seems kinda unnecessary. Dying in pvp from full HP at the current 40% grievous damage is super difficult for someone who knows how to not die to dumb stuff.

I think it would work better as a temporary buff, replacing murderous rage. E.g. one side wants to win a fight over something and pops it in a fight to make themselves much stronger, and the other side can decide if the fight is worth it and pop it to keep the fight even, but the fight ends up being much riskier for both parties. Murderous rage has the problem of only being useful when already winning the fight.

If the KOP is a permanent skill, being alone and getting randomly ganked by a group seems like a really lame way to die if they didn't even buy murder. Even if you track and counter-gank, they can't die. Having it be a 24h buff + the duration of any outlaw generated during it would kinda fix this.

I'm not sure I understand how it would be different.
If it's a temporary buff, wouldn't it have the same issue of Murderous rage, with people using it only when the fight is already won?

Losing KOP permanently is harsh. But so is getting killed.
Between siege being too much effort to pull off, and Nidbanes being useless, most fighters have nothing to fear. Not so long ago this came up in another thread, I believe it was Snail that said something about the lack of repercussions for killing anyone on sight.

The 24h+buff duration is ok-ish, but when you can just chill in your safe village and do village stuff meanwhile, it's barely a downside.

Btw thanks for taking the time to actually discuss this

[DDDsDD999]

I'm not sure I understand how it would be different.
If it's a temporary buff, wouldn't it have the same issue of Murderous rage, with people using it only when the fight is already won?

The point is you use it for the combat perk to win, but risk dying. It would only be used while the fight is losing/even.

[mulamishne]

By the say Siege has been updated over the years, it's clear that Devs don't intend to make Haven a game where the stronger prays on the weak. Otherwise we'd still have palibashing and stuff like that.
Following that reasoning,

I encourage you to read the developer opinion on pvp post because it covers some of that statement.

As for ko protection, we have had the worlds in the past where it was opt in permadeath, there's too many edge cases. The current system is fine, as long as you are not walking around wounded, or intentionally giving your hp to someone in murderous rage.

[Clemins]

Also, not being able to be killed by another player is abusable, imagine:

Someone makes a bunch of alts to stand in front of your gates and:
- They position themselves in such a way that they cannot be effectively pushed.
- KO'ing them doesn't make them move from their position.
- Not buying rage makes them invincible.

Jorb and Loftar have actually thought of this very scenario themselves, as outlined here:

>>> viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710 <<<

Here is the quote if you don't want to read it all, though I highly recommend you do:

Do I really have to spell it out for you? My point is this: What do you do on a non-PvP server when someone:
Starts building a village idol to claim the land around you;
Takes ten alts to block the exit of your palisade gate;
Builds a palisade around your claim;
Plants a tight forest all around you, or conversely, cuts down all the trees around you;
Simply stands in your way;
Runs away with the carcass of the animal you just killed; or
Just decides to settle down next to you while you don't like him?
These, and many other conceivable actions, are far easier ways to grief people than is PvP, and PvP is the only thing that keeps them somewhat in check. Therefore, removing PvP results not in less griefing, but in more.

In case it's not obvious, I'm not denying that some people just want to live in peace, and I don't think it would be a bad thing if they could do that. But removing PvP does not result in that.

I understand that getting clubbed like a seal is not your or some other people's idea of "fun." But like it or not, it's a necessary evil; it also so happens that it's an evil that some people enjoy enacting in a game that was designed with these mechanics in mind.

[Barbamaus]

Also, not being able to be killed by another player is abusable, imagine:

Someone makes a bunch of alts to stand in front of your gates and:
- They position themselves in such a way that they cannot be effectively pushed.
- KO'ing them doesn't make them move from their position.
- Not buying rage makes them invincible.

I think you misunderstood my message. Nobody would be invincible or unkillable. Assuming you're talking about Option 2, you'd need Murder to kill those alts. Rage would no longer be enough, but Murder would. (Option 1 would be exactly like now, with normal KOP)

Lately I've heard this whole blocked gate thing a lot, but it's a bit of a weird scenario to me. Wouldn't you just be able to evict them? I'm assuming your gate is claimed, and probably one or more tiles outside of it like 99% of claim owners do.

As for loftar's message, I get why they don't want no-pvp characters (which isn't the case in this thread), but it also shows how much out of touch he is with their own game.
I won't go into details, but most of those examples are not something that "normal" players would resolve with PvP, with the exception of those who do PvP regardless of circumstances and possibly some large faction (assuming there's any non-pvp faction).
The risks are just too high, because you have no way of knowing how strong they are, and more importantly who they might be. An alt of a big pvp guy. A friend of a faction member. And so on.

That being said, I can't stress this enough: the suggested rework doesn't create unkillable characters. It just makes killing more risky, by removing KOP from those with either Rage (Option 1) or Murder (Option 2).

[Clemins]

I think you misunderstood my message. Nobody would be invincible or unkillable. Assuming you're talking about Option 2, you'd need Murder to kill those alts. Rage would no longer be enough, but Murder would. (Option 1 would be exactly like now, with normal KOP)

Yes, I was mainly referring to your first point of "KOP," mostly because murder IS used for kills RIGHT NOW, but it is not (typically) used to kill "weak players" because it is usually not needed. It is actually extremely difficult to fully kill someone without murderous rage. However, the threshold for dying from an encounter with a "bandit" usually ends in death only when your HHP is >75–85% (not exact; it varies a little) prior to the encounter. Why it works this way, I'm not totally sure, but people smarter than me have done the math and the results have been consistent. This also goes for people who pvp; the difference is that they usually know not to walk around outside, missing a visible chunk of their health, because it's likely they'll get killed. Consider this "arcane haven knowledge" if you want, but it's not some big secret or anything. I know you're suggesting this to "raise the stakes" for pvpers, but I assure you everyone who can confidently pvp right now is not worried about this; some people, like a few people have said already, run on murderous rage 24/7. Even so, this will promote a fighter alt even more than it already is.

Lately, I've heard this whole blocked gate thing a lot, but it's a bit of a weird scenario to me. Wouldn't you just be able to evict them? I'm assuming your gate is claimed, and probably one or more tiles outside of it, like 99% of claim owners do.

No, you can't; you can only evict people with the "visitor" debuff. I'm talking about people standing in front of gates that, while not crossing into them, just toggle off "visiting," and you physically cannot pass through the gate. Being on claim would not prevent alts from trespassing; you can trespass by default. The tresspassing skill itself allows you to commit crimes of "rummaging," such as moving objects on claims, opening gates or doors, and looking into claimed inventories.

As for loftar's message, I get why they don't want no-pvp characters (which isn't the case in this thread), but it also shows how much out of touch he is with their own game.

As much as I'm trying not to play the "dissecting logical fallacy" game here, I cannot help but point out that you're asserting your point by straw-manning what Jorb and Loftar have publicly stated and, as of now, have reaffirmed multiple times throughout the years. While I agree that their full understanding of how numbers (currently) work in PVP is not good, that's not really the point. They do, however, understand the fundamental issue with dramatically altering the PVP-death scenario. I'm not trying to say that this absolutely cannot be changed; what I'm trying to say is that this is one of those changes that can absolutely break the game overnight. This is one of those problems that needs, like, autistic levels of critical thinking, because if you can think of even one outlandishly abusive use case, I can assure you that it's going to be used. I think conversations surrounding what can make the game better for everyone are a good thing, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that something of this caliber needs significantly more thought than a 15-minute shower brainstorm idea.

I understand you're trying to make "crime" more deadly, but I can assure you that it's not going to stop people from bopping "people who don't buy rage", Furthermore, what about the people who need to defend their claim or village from raiders? Should you need to sign the death waiver just because someone sets up a siege camp outside your walls? I can't see you agreeing with that. I'm really trying to show you how important it is, even for the "good guys," to be able to initiate combat without signing a 100% death waiver. That's also just going to make people even less inclined to learn how to actually defend themselves in the future. This exact conversation comes up all the time here and it's really starting to get exhausting trying to explain why these aspects of the game exist in a level-headed manner while people act like their on trial for their ideas and defending them is more important than considering the possible ramifications.

*Edit: Also, doesn't KOP mean you can just stand up indefinitely with 1 HHP because you'd be unkillable?