Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby LostJustice » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:46 am

cherryquartz wrote:
loftar wrote:
SnuggleSnail wrote:having a private map with player dots on it.

That is a fair point. Looking back at the format of the data he's actually sending, there may be a case to be made that it is needlessly revealing if the point is merely to build a public map. It should be possible to batch collected grids together every half hour or something. If that is a non-trivial implementation, I would in fact strongly suggest that Shubla turn his telemetry off until he has the opportunity to implement that.




The fact that he is even collecting that data is suspicious, if he doesn't need it for the public map, WHY collect it? He is fooling you all with this holier than thou nonsense. Surely you can see that his actions are at best suspicious, there is literally NO reason for him to collect that data unless he is using it for malicious purposes.
Who he plays with and whether he is in a large faction should have nothing to do with it, even as a small village, having the location of anyone that uses his client gives him a HUGE advantage, a very unfair and malicious advantage. I wonder why you seem concerned about Snails intentions regarding Shubla but defend Shublas intentions even though he has given no valid reason for collecting such data, especially without any opt in or out feature. You also allow him to advertise the map, the map code he stole from Alg, he has admitted that he stole the code and yet you still allow him to advertise the content, content that he now benefits financially from.

You're setting a precedence for this activity and behaviour to run rampant on these forums, same as when you allowed Shubla to bribe you into changing the boat combat mechanics. Something needs to change, for whatever reason you're allowing one person to make a mockery of yourselves, this forum and the game in general.

Don’t quite think that is Loftar’s idea here to “defend shubla”. I think as the game dev and moderator he needs to make sure it justified. Like in any law court someone must show intent for an action and the action must be lawfully wrong. In shublas case it is clearly ethically wrong and probably client wise considered lawfully wrong in the sense someone is collecting information without making it clear or giving users the option to turn it off. If shubla did this after the case of the client fiasco where accounts were stolen using custom clients, then I am sure he would be insta banned and nuked right now. But the issue that is hard to tell is what shublas intent was. Loftar doesn’t know shublas true intent even if it leans towards maliciously using the map files which we all know he probably will and most likely do or monetize the data to the highest bidder if he isn’t already sharing this information. If Loftar just banned him out right now then Snail who for instance destroyed KoA through game mechanics could be categorized under the same slippery slope for that action even though he was just diligent enough about reading and thinking about game mechanics and using them to his full advantage which imho is never wrong and more of a game design flaw.

I do think however that shubla should be forced to add a toggle to sending map data and a warning if the map is defaulted to send data. If he truly has good intentions this won’t be an issue. If his intentions are bad then he will refuse. In which case I think majority of the community would be apt for banning his existence.

Edit: And @Loftar about the issue at debate. My reasoning is that there is a lot of non-english speakers who play Hafen who have no idea of this and use his client fully without knowing the usages of shubla's "service". There is a point to where you are collecting map data to assist in a map or food data to assist in collecting food. Having no turn off mechanism with collecting player coordinates and hats is a slippery slope if done incorrectly and especially the way Shubla has done it. If a client like this existed in world 6 with sending player coordinates in such the way he has, it would have most likely been an insta banned.

Times have changed since then and people want to use it for good intentions which changes the scenario a bit but Shubla has crossed yet another line with the collection of hats which just doesn't seem like a valid reason to send that data without a disclaimer and an off mechanism at all. I could see justification about map tiles but player coordinates, hats, and names, that is a hard no for any justification for that. PvP in this game already suffers but giving groups the unfair advantage of who is who defeats the purpose of the memo system.
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby AntiBlitz » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:13 am

because your ethics is the same as anothers ethics......./thread
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby Astarisk » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:04 am

Updated with the latest.
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby cherryquartz » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:30 pm

LostJustice wrote: Don’t quite think that is Loftar’s idea here to “defend shubla”. I think as the game dev and moderator he needs to make sure it justified. Like in any law court someone must show intent for an action and the action must be lawfully wrong. In shublas case it is clearly ethically wrong and probably client wise considered lawfully wrong in the sense someone is collecting information without making it clear or giving users the option to turn it off. If shubla did this after the case of the client fiasco where accounts were stolen using custom clients, then I am sure he would be insta banned and nuked right now. But the issue that is hard to tell is what shublas intent was. Loftar doesn’t know shublas true intent even if it leans towards maliciously using the map files which we all know he probably will and most likely do or monetize the data to the highest bidder if he isn’t already sharing this information. If Loftar just banned him out right now then Snail who for instance destroyed KoA through game mechanics could be categorized under the same slippery slope for that action even though he was just diligent enough about reading and thinking about game mechanics and using them to his full advantage which imho is never wrong and more of a game design flaw.

I do think however that shubla should be forced to add a toggle to sending map data and a warning if the map is defaulted to send data. If he truly has good intentions this won’t be an issue. If his intentions are bad then he will refuse. In which case I think majority of the community would be apt for banning his existence.

Edit: And @Loftar about the issue at debate. My reasoning is that there is a lot of non-english speakers who play Hafen who have no idea of this and use his client fully without knowing the usages of shubla's "service". There is a point to where you are collecting map data to assist in a map or food data to assist in collecting food. Having no turn off mechanism with collecting player coordinates and hats is a slippery slope if done incorrectly and especially the way Shubla has done it. If a client like this existed in world 6 with sending player coordinates in such the way he has, it would have most likely been an insta banned.

Times have changed since then and people want to use it for good intentions which changes the scenario a bit but Shubla has crossed yet another line with the collection of hats which just doesn't seem like a valid reason to send that data without a disclaimer and an off mechanism at all. I could see justification about map tiles but player coordinates, hats, and names, that is a hard no for any justification for that. PvP in this game already suffers but giving groups the unfair advantage of who is who defeats the purpose of the memo system.


This is not the first bad thing Shubla has done though, he keeps getting away with things others would be punished for. Lofter literally said that if it was Snail he would be more likely to punish him because he's in a big faction. You cant have one rule for one and another for another, there is NO justification for Shubla to be collecting that data. Everyone knows Shubla's moral compass has never been pointing in the right direction, he is sly, sneaky, a liar, a thief, the list is long and varied. He should have been banned after the stunt he pulled when he killed the newbs and threatened to carry on until J&L did what he wanted. Shall i bring up the fact AGAIN that he knowingly stole Alg's map code, passed it off as his own, then tried to financially benefit from someone elses work? That has also been allowed by the devs, which i find disgusting. Knowingly allowing plagiarised work to be advertised on their forums.


Another player has had to go out of his way to protect players from Shublas deceit, this should have been a job for the devs/moderators. Im still unsure as to why he gets preferential treatment.
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby wolf1000wolf » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:41 pm

loftar wrote:
SnuggleSnail wrote:having a private map with player dots on it.

That is a fair point. Looking back at the format of the data he's actually sending, there may be a case to be made that it is needlessly revealing if the point is merely to build a public map. It should be possible to batch collected grids together every half hour or something. If that is a non-trivial implementation, I would in fact strongly suggest that Shubla turn his telemetry off until he has the opportunity to implement that.


I really didn't want to join in this very pointless debate where everyone talking has already made up their mind but really want to point out... the player dots is actually useful for small group of friends playing.

I'm unsure if you guys know this but shubla does offer anyone who uses his client their own private map (hosted by shubla). On that map, you can share with your friends the markers and it also shows your character location in real time. It's an useful feature that doesn't require partying to show character icons on a map. Also allows for a much more convenient map viewing experience.

Edit: the hat data is used to create your character icon. Eg: I'm wearing a feather band and I show up on the map as a feather band icon. Could there be a better way of displaying a player icon without needing your hat data? Probably?
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby LostJustice » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:02 pm

wolf1000wolf wrote:
loftar wrote:
SnuggleSnail wrote:having a private map with player dots on it.

That is a fair point. Looking back at the format of the data he's actually sending, there may be a case to be made that it is needlessly revealing if the point is merely to build a public map. It should be possible to batch collected grids together every half hour or something. If that is a non-trivial implementation, I would in fact strongly suggest that Shubla turn his telemetry off until he has the opportunity to implement that.


I really didn't want to join in this very pointless debate where everyone talking has already made up their mind but really want to point out... the player dots is actually useful for small group of friends playing.

I'm unsure if you guys know this but shubla does offer anyone who uses his client their own private map (hosted by shubla). On that map, you can share with your friends the markers and it also shows your character location in real time. It's an useful feature that doesn't require partying to show character icons on a map. Also allows for a much more convenient map viewing experience.

Edit: the hat data is used to create your character icon. Eg: I'm wearing a feather band and I show up on the map as a feather band icon. Could there be a better way of displaying a player icon without needing your hat data? Probably?

I think you missed the point. You should reread. We know this usage of player location and it an interesting feature but to add such a feature without an off mechanism and without a clear warning is the issue. Private map hosted by shubla. What about his private map of viewing everyone that he may or may not have?
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby bmjclark » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:27 pm

Should add a donation button now that you've made a few changes to the client. Thats how this works right?
Cajoes wrote:I was the murder victim your guy aggro'd. And slew. Entirely unprovoked. Rather handily at that. Which prompted the retaliatory party. That you also handily slew.
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby synntax33 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:12 am

Sooooo......


All Shubla aside

How do we run this client on Linux

*EDIT* soory its the run as executable thing as always, disregard lol
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby Astarisk » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:20 pm

Quick bump to remind people to update if they feel the need to. It is the latest as far as I'm aware xd
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Re: Ethically-Sourced Copy-Pasta Client.

Postby toylover » Sun May 02, 2021 2:49 pm

is the client updated to latest?
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