Open discussion about Map & Food Services

[derkami]

World 16 is rolling up ahead.
I'm planning again to host a simple public version of the map, like I did for this world.

But I'm also torn about making this a public available service to use.
Mainly because of the bad perception the last iteration had.

So I want to have an open discussion about what you'd like to see and what not and why not.

More for those who care

I don't see the value in yet another open source implementation of some sorts which will rot on github.
I do see value in having this as a service where everyone could benefit from a common contribution mainly for completion purpose.
There is the problem of discovery, although I still intent to only use the first "found" tile. Except for winter tiles. I hate these...

I'd like to see some additions / fixes to the current implementation on the client side, but client maintainers are only willing to accept these if there's a free backend.
So Ideally I might release a source available community version, which to my opinion, should work on most hosters, sooo ideally it should be implemented in php. I take opinions on that aswell.

All the same for the Foodservice.

Option 1)
Hosted Services for those who want
My guess: Casuals won't mind. Vets won't use it because of trust issues.

Option 2)
Another free to use open source implementation.
My guess: Casuals won't care. Vets will use it without ever contributing.

Option 3)
Mix 1 and 2 together to have:
A central point for additional data collection through self hosted open source community version which can be configured to automatically "pass on" the map info for the public map or not.
My guess: Casuals still won't care and won't mind. Vets will use it, mostly disabling forwarding.

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about position data, just map information and global markers which would also be optional and configurable. Everything would be opt-in, as it should be.
I just don't want to contribute more to the git-grave.

[joojoo1975]

Mainly because of the bad perception the last iteration had.

could you elaborate on this please?

[Nightdawg]

Open cookbooks don't work because some losers will spend their time spamming your server with fake data, as we've seen before.

Maps are ok I guess.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Open cookbooks don't work because some losers will spend their time spamming your server with fake data, as we've seen before.

Maps are ok I guess.

Mostly curious if changes to hunger make cookbooks far less important as well.
Everything being scaled into tiers based on hunger:food ratio will probably make them quite optional.

[APXEOLOG]

The main problem with the public map is that it conceptually goes against the goal of the players. In many cases, players do not want the location of their village to be known (especially in the early stages, especially big groups). It does not matter at some point, but not from the start. So no matter how good the public map would be, it would be mostly populated by solo explorers during the first weeks. I also think a lot (most? all?) of the big groups have their own maps, so it doesn't matter much.

Mostly curious if changes to hunger make cookbooks far less important as well

Until the food can give randomized stats based on the input, the cookbook will be as important as usual.

[derkami]

Mainly because of the bad perception the last iteration had.

could you elaborate on this please?

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=70170
Although it mostly was about the client, convenience still requires certain data transmissions.
Maybe I'm wrong about the perception of the services tho.

Open cookbooks don't work because some losers will spend their time spamming your server with fake data, as we've seen before.

Maps are ok I guess.

True, although i wouldn't implement it in the same way -> Everyone participating would have their own account and data entry would be tied to that.
Accounts wouldn't be just "free to create in an unlimited way". Which would mean i can just nuke while batches of fucked up data.

The main problem with the public map is that it conceptually goes against the goal of the players. In many cases, players do not want the location of their village to be known (especially in the early stages, especially big groups). It does not matter at some point, but not from the start. So no matter how good the public map would be, it would be mostly populated by solo explorers during the first weeks. I also think a lot (most? all?) of the big groups have their own maps, so it doesn't matter much.

I feel like, that's where numbers matter. This worldmap was basically created by somewhat around 100+ people.
If i get the number up, the higher the chance of getting the very first tile without most locations compromised.
But yes, that will always be an issue, still tho, the need of having a map and using the map was pretty significant at the start of this world. Usage only plummeted like 2 weeks in once most of the people settled.
Total Traffic: 1,963,389.82 MB
Although I've managed to optimize it from june 5th to have significant less space requirements. I think i got it down to 20% or something, would need to check that up again.
Highest traffic was from worldstart to mid december.

[NoBizd]

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=70170
Although it mostly was about the client, convenience still requires certain data transmissions.
Maybe I'm wrong about the perception of the services tho.

The problem with Shubla was that he was using collected data not only for map, but also his shady shit. Somehow he was getting info he shouldn't have, even when he denied it. There are at least few examples of this, but I'm not sure if they are public.

I feel like, that's where numbers matter. This worldmap was basically created by somewhat around 100+ people.

Not exactly. Most factions just bot this data, that's the reason at world start you see so many afk and/or dead naked alts. That's why so many dugouts sails around the continent. Just the oceans and smallers islands takes more time.


Anyway, back to the topic - IMO public stuff is always good. Keep in mind the people posting on forum are in minority. Big factions are also minority. And biggest percentage of players, so small villages/hermits, loves any info they can get from forum or discords, but can't gather on their own in game. That's why wiki is still popular, even when not official nor up to date at lot of stuff.

I would love to see the map, where I can contribute pro publico bono (With toggle on/off when. There is always some stuff no1 likes to share) but also the option for villages to host the map system on their own hosting, using their own map data - for example to get updated chunks or drop their own markers. It would help the little ones, as factions most of the time use their own maps anyway.

[wonder-ass]

Ye lol shubla had real time tracking of players that were using his client and many more features. Its actually insane what he got away with because hes a shitter. If roles were reversed and we were the ones who did this easy perma ban for the entire village.

[Nightdawg]

Shubla's "enabled-by-default" map uploader was not refreshing the already discovered tiles during the first month or somethings, so villages were not popping up on the map.

But yeah, unless you plan to have bots spawning in and exploring the map on day one, I doubt you can map the world without a lot people willing to help you do it.

Open cookbooks don't work because some losers will spend their time spamming your server with fake data, as we've seen before.

Maps are ok I guess.

True, although i wouldn't implement it in the same way -> Everyone participating would have their own account and data entry would be tied to that.
Accounts wouldn't be just "free to create in an unlimited way". Which would mean i can just nuke while batches of fucked up data.

If you're willing to manage that, I guess.

[Zaeri]

At least when it comes to cookbook, I personally consider a working cookbook to be a such an important feature that it should be even hosted by Jorb & Loftar themselves with even default client sending data (with opt out option ofc) to the public cookbook managed by the devs. It could also make filling the cookbook some kind of community project for the future seasonal servers if they keep scrambling the recipes each world start.

The amount of tedium and effort the cookbook saves for the people with finite resources is unimaginable and levels out the playing field and makes the game more enjoyable. Hell, even with it's old data from earlier world's I've still been using Shubla's cookbook to scout out things I should try out. If a person with finite resources makes bad foods, they'll just end up eating the foods anyways as the time/effort/gain for the food is more valuable to them than the hunger hit, so to increase overall player efficiency a cookbook is almost a requirement.

So in short in my personal opinion: A publicly available cookbook is such a key element in making cooking at least somewhat tolerable that it should be a core game feature but as that won't happen, whoever makes one will have my eternal gratitude.