Discussion - The Quality System

[Yolan]

(I'm sure that there are plenty of past discussions on this, but I don't want to necro them, and maybe parties involved can quote past points. Also, as time goes on, and other people play, we have new perspectives and things to add.)

So, I am interested in knowing more about people's thoughts on the current quality system, what is working well and what not so much.

A few questions to get things going:

- Do you think the system as it stands is functioning well in promoting the development of team work in the game?
- Does the system overly penalize newer people, or does it fail to reward developed people enough?
- Is it the case that the gap in quality between beginning items and advanced items is too large, or not large enough?
- I am saying this as somebody without solid experience, but I am surprised to hear about quality 300 seeds, or quality 500 cows. Does the existence of these objects unbalance the game? For example, does it put many people in a state of 'waiting for the next world' to really play, so that they can have a hope of competing again?

[borka]

2 things to consider :

This world is running very long time now and there has been a huge gap in player numbers while lag.

A lot of ppl complaining stopped playing once, now came back after lag fix and might be jealous about quality those that played continously since the first days have achieved by now.

[Yolan]

It was interested watching the debate in another thread regarding the selling of high quality seeds, specifically flax seeds. For some people, it undercuts all the work that has been done to gain access to those seeds in the first place. Some new guy comes along and can suddenly do what they took a long time to be able to do.

It does seem to me that on the other hand we have people who feel that, like Borka just mentioned, there is an 'unfair' advantage held by developed peoples who have material that is simply too good to compete with.

Thinking in terms of ideal game mechanics as opposed to the actual situation, it's true that a large part of the attraction of this game is the struggle to carve out a bit of civilization from the wilderness and strive for good quality objects, but I don't suppose Jorb and Loftar would prefer a situation where every group of people is forced to reinvent the wheel. It makes sense to me that in an older world like this people should be able to enjoy a different situation from the outset, via trade, than people who started at the very beginning of the world. It's the same in the actual world with countries that can directly import technology that other places spent generations developing.

That said, every mechanic has to be considered in terms of the whole. It might make sense when isolated, but still be problematic in how it connects to other mechanics/realities of the game. As far as I can see it, one problem right now is that the world is in a sense developed (high q objects), but also still exceedingly undeveloped. The mechanics for supporting political development beyond villages was never implemented. There are no nation or empire mechanics for example. And hence we are still living close to a state of nature ala Mad Max, with strong tribes dominating weak tribes. As a new player, access to developed materials can hence be very difficult. You generally cant simply travel to a nearby town and buy them from a shop, because we don't really have highways, or towns or shops. Yes, you can get a vidol and trade using porting, but this is of course a kind of player developed work around to deal with a situation that is far from ideal, and it poses a big challenge to players who are new at the game. Anyhow, I'm getting off topic...

[Phaen]

we don't have highways because we have vidol trading

I would have a lot of fun with highways and trading via wagon but nobody's gonna agree to that when they have better options.

[Amanda44]

Unless you are a part of one of the big factions there is no 'competeing'.
Larger groups of people with fields of specialisation, and bots, will always have an advantage over the general player base.

I choose not to look at the game in terms of a race for quality or control - winning or losing, I see it more as continued personal achievement - if I played with a group, continued group achievement - and I win everytime I raise quality or live another day, lol.

I don't think quality issues make the game unbalanced to it's detriment, high quality is achievable by everyone with the time and effort, even alone as a hermit, it just takes longer but is probably more rewarding because of it.

And, ofc, we have trade to ensure we all get nice things and a boost to our own productions. Much like rl as you say.

Personaly, what quality everyone else has would never deter me from playing or holding off 'til world 7, it just gives me a benchmark to aim for, which is all you will ever be doing even if we all start fresh tomorrow. Hnh is a long-term style of play, time is sort of irrelevent once you realise you will not be first over the line.

[Sarge]

The quality system is genius, don't touch it.

[krikke93]

I really really really like the quality system as it is now. It's just so different from other games, it's something that makes Haven and Hearth unique (together with some other things).

But there's one thing that's a bit "unfair", what about the hermits?
I've been hermitting all the time in Haven and Hearth and I know how hard it is for a hermit to get high quality items itself. It would for example never reach quality 1000 wax itself (or he should be playing so fucking much). Hermits have to maintain all their skills and this is just incredibly time-consuming, but hermitting is fun.

BUT, I still don't want the quality system to change. It's way too genius.

[martenx]

The quality system is genius, don't touch it.

[KwonChiMin]

But there's one thing that's a bit "unfair", what about the hermits?
I've been hermitting all the time in Haven and Hearth and I know how hard it is for a hermit to get high quality items itself. It would for example never reach quality 1000 wax itself (or he should be playing so fucking much). Hermits have to maintain all their skills and this is just incredibly time-consuming, but hermitting is fun.

At the end, why should some hobo get a Bentley?

[borka]

for the same reason they want carrots Hi Kwon

I too think the quality system is fine - Amanda said i lot i'd say too

@Krikke
that wax q is mainly a result of having a char online afk 24/7 near Hive (besides having high q crops)

When you look at Hermitting in the Light of what Amanda said it's not 'unfair' - the main problem as Hermit is more that you can't fight for high resources...