ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby TeckXKnight » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:39 pm

SacreDoom wrote:That's one of the things... I dont think it'll work.

Well, if there was some sort of limit on numen it would prevent the greatest abuses as I believe Forge Prayer is capped in the quality of nugget it gives you based on your total numen points. A limit would create an artificial wall based on the number of total discoverable items but I don't know how many people actually get a large sum of numen points and if this change would encourage getting more.

It's a rather difficult issue to play around with but I think the biggest benefit of it would be that your ancestors would no longer request Gold nuggets and Bay12 Axes.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby Argus » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:37 pm

I wouldn't mind so much if my ancestors stuck to dandelions, toads, or rabbit meat, but I find it disturbing that the current request is for bloodied rags (i.e., used bandages).

Seriously, wtf. Even if I had that, that's really creepy.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby YourMajesty » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:05 pm

Argus wrote:I wouldn't mind so much if my ancestors stuck to dandelions, toads, or rabbit meat, but I find it disturbing that the current request is for bloodied rags (i.e., used bandages).

Seriously, wtf. Even if I had that, that's really creepy.


A live toad or rat is better?

Anyway... While limiting the items would make sense, it still seems fairly exploitable, for all of the reasons already pointed out.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby cloakblade » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:42 am

The only thing I could see this being abused for is in the early game to get crops or metal faster. Which is a fun/ny idea if you think about it.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby Granger » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:54 am

cloakblade wrote:The only thing I could see this being abused for is in the early game to get crops or metal faster. Which is a fun/ny idea if you think about it.

I had the first crops and nuggets on day 3 of lazy playing, with the recent changes (belief slider setup through suicide no longer possible) i'm not so sure that prayer will be faster than this.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby cloakblade » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:55 pm

Granger wrote:
cloakblade wrote:The only thing I could see this being abused for is in the early game to get crops or metal faster. Which is a fun/ny idea if you think about it.

I had the first crops and nuggets on day 3 of lazy playing, with the recent changes (belief slider setup through suicide no longer possible) i'm not so sure that prayer will be faster than this.


If you squat on high q soil and dig as much as you can with the first character then have the new character discover soil. Don't use the slider so you get a 1 numem : 1 sacrife. Sacrifices soil, until you get 10 numen; Wish for nuggets; Repeat until you have a load of nuggets; Then start giving him the higher q soil until he hits 20 (after getting him to 10 the easy way); Wish for crops; Repeat. Make sure to keep your crops and nuggets on alts till you get Yeomanry. If you manage to get a kiln, and 20 extra clay (enough for alloying crucible) you can easily get bars day 1 (after yeomanry is up so thiefs).


Edit: Though if you made a starter list. Such that it wouldn't give you cheese but would give you frogs even if you haven't seen frogs yet. This would only allow for nugget wishing abuse and if you up the requirements for it to 15 it could made reasonable.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby sabinati » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:07 pm

cloakblade wrote:
Granger wrote:
cloakblade wrote:The only thing I could see this being abused for is in the early game to get crops or metal faster. Which is a fun/ny idea if you think about it.

I had the first crops and nuggets on day 3 of lazy playing, with the recent changes (belief slider setup through suicide no longer possible) i'm not so sure that prayer will be faster than this.


If you squat on high q soil and dig as much as you can with the first character then have the new character discover soil. Don't use the slider so you get a 1 numem : 1 sacrife. Sacrifices soil, until you get 10 numen; Wish for nuggets; Repeat until you have a load of nuggets; Then start giving him the higher q soil until he hits 20 (after getting him to 10 the easy way); Wish for crops; Repeat. Make sure to keep your crops and nuggets on alts till you get Yeomanry. If you manage to get a kiln, and 20 extra clay (enough for alloying crucible) you can easily get bars day 1 (after yeomanry is up so thiefs).


Edit: Though if you made a starter list. Such that it wouldn't give you cheese but would give you frogs even if you haven't seen frogs yet. This would only allow for nugget wishing abuse and if you up the requirements for it to 15 it could made reasonable.


well, for starters, you would have to discover a bone, branch, stone, board, string, and dream to even make a shrine. plus you need to get enough LP for ancestral worship, bare minimum of a few discoveries. i think you might still be able to have someone else make the construction sign and put the material in and have the shrine be owned by an alt who just hit build, but imo that should be solved in the same way that the issue was for claim stakes.

furthermore, the crop prayer didn't give seeds, it raised the q to your ancestor's farming skill, and has been removed since the first days of world 4 iirc.

and finally, praying for nuggets would add that nugget to your list of available items to sacrifice.

sabinati wrote:hmm, limit numen to total number of items unlocked, maybe? or some other way?


and this should prevent any exploit like that, imo

also, discovering something would unlock any item that can be made with it, provided other prerequisite discoveries were made as well. for example: stone axe wouldn't be an option unless you discovered branches and stone, but fishing pole would show up if you discover branches.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby TeckXKnight » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:18 am

sabinati wrote:and finally, praying for nuggets would add that nugget to your list of available items to sacrifice.

This is true and very helpful. I'm curious on the probability if you ran the bare minimum to build the shrine and sacrifice for the numen to get nuggets. Say you get fed curiosities rather than make them yourself and never discover anything except for the most common goods.

Discover branches, stone, clay, dirt, dreams, boards, blocks, leaves, earthworms, and stone axes. This lets you produce nuggets fairly cheaply and pretty safely gamble. You probably wouldn't have to forfeit very often with a variety of goods like that and the products they unlock.

Alternatively, feed them seeds as discoveries so that they don't unlock many further recipes.
Boards, dreams, carrots, carrot seeds, poppy seeds, poppy flowers, yellow onions, beetroot, beetroot leaves, and mulberry leaves. This would minimize the recipes you'd unlock to virtually nill aside from the cheese tray and bucket -- both of which are very cheap to have someone else produce and feed to you to prevent you from discovering them. So while the need to feed nuggets to your ancestors is a deterrent, you'd be able to mass produce cheap nuggets fairly easy.

Numen restrictions would prevent the late game metal rushes though. Besides, the scenario I presented is still mid-development if you have full fledged crop yields going on.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby Maiden » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:24 am

Limit # of wishes per in game day to shrine q/10.
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Re: ancestors should only request items that you have discovered

Postby theTrav » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:44 am

I like this idea, it would be neat to use ancestor worship more often/ever.

Maybe along with this change you could develop prayers with the assumption that people are actually going to use them
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