Is the game balanced towards justice?

[kobnach]

But ultimately, you're advocating a thiefless world (which your idea wouldn't accomplish but whatever), to which I can only reply, play harvest moon.

If harvest moon were multiplayer, and a lot more open ended, I probably would. I have no empathy with thieves, seeing them only as a slightly more profit oriented variant on the generic griefer: players who can't have fun unless someone else gets damaged/victimized/annoyed.

You see, in dealing with thieves, we've only escalated the conflict to new levels of brutality, so it's natural to have strong feelings - we've raised the stakes quite a lot. The last time I was killed for thievery, it was because I ate someone's carrot cake. Escalating conflict is the last thing we want to do. We need to deescalate and diffuse the current patterns of aggression because they can't be contained in a healthy environment if they get too much worse. I primarily like eating other people's food, but in order to do that, I have to break walls and pummel people with my fists nowadays. I'd rather not have to resort to something more than vandalism and battery to eat other people's food, but I probably would if I were challenged as you suggest.

There's more LP to be had making your own food. So _why_ do you like eating other people's? If it's because it's likely to upset/distress them, then you are just another griefer. And frankly some of the worst griefing I've experienced involved nothing valuable. The problem was the fairly clean sweep, and the recovery time needed.

Or do you want the "excitement" and "challenge" of stealing? Well, for that to be available, you need to have significant risk. And if you are full trad, there's no real risk. Ditto if all they can do is jail you for a while, or if they can't go after you based on evidence, and need to be online when you are stealing. (You may think you want "risk", but I'm betting you'll pick your victims based on time zone nonetheless.)

Pumpkin is the only thief I've known who didn't do significant damage. He was even willing to bring back my teapots when I told him he'd get more tea out of me if he returned the pots The worst cases of thieving/griefing have set me back weeks of effort, and caused players I enjoyed playing with to leave the game.

Obviously the devs want black skills to be part of the game, and want black skills to be fun. I don't see how that can be accomplished, without making victims out of everyone else. And as with Delamore's desire to make serfs out of others - it won't work, because the victims aren't forced to continue playing, and will go somewhere they can have fun.

p.s. How many carrot cake did you steal, and did you leave the owner stuck, working on per with no per foods conveniently available? Were they, perchance, someone who purchased carrot cake rather than making their own, and therefore might have been happier if you'd simply stolen cast iron, which they made themselves (in the old map)?

[fructose]

It was the old world, 6 cakes. Their plantation was in a state of disrepair even. I'm not even sure the owner was responsible for my death in any way. That wasn't uncommon in the old world, and I imagine I'll find things much the same when I ramp up my burglaries.

Anyhow, thievery is, for me, exciting and fun. I agree that there's no risk, but I think risk should be created in the options that thieves have in how they steal, their use of skills, and their ability to cleverly manipulate their environment. I don't think risk should be manifested entirely in the hands of rangers. I just went over why that won't solve our problems and would most likely make them worse.

I think if thievery used skills and some intelligence provided by the player, it would separate the thieves from the griefers. Right now there isn't much difference because the tools of thievery are the same as griefing. Likewise, the tools of justice are just a thin veneer on PKing. That's not the most ideal situation.

[Jackard]

To keep this under control, I'd rather like to see accounts indelibly marked with their history. Not summonable scents, but an aura - slightly blackened for each summonable crime committed by any other character on the account, or at least for any ancestor. A ranger who kills a few times would have a few black marks on his descendants, scarcely noticeable - but folks like Pumpkin, Jackard, etc. would have obviously marked descendants, tarred with the bad reputation their ancestors had earned. This would be consistent with the theme, since family reputation was incredibly important, and kin groups were liable for their members' crimes. It would also make life a lot easier for those with no interest in being involved in "black" skills as criminal or victim.

now see, a problem with this subforum is when people thoughtlessly shit out suggestions without considering the consequences of them being implemented or if they are balanced

[Potjeh]

I don't think the problem lies in the summoning and execution part. The problem is that it's too easy to get to that part. So, if I were Loftar, I'd make tracking a bit harder. Here's a list of things which I think would give a fair chance to criminals while keeping it possible for their victims to get revenge:
- Fix scent detection. Only one roll for detection of one scent by one ranger.
- Fix scent storage. They should expire in inventories.
- Get rid of altvaults. If victims had a chance to retrieve the stolen items, they'd be less inclined to kill the thieves. Altvaults hurt the thieves too, as everyone stores valuable stuff in them.
- Make finding scents an active, rather than passive action. Instead of just walking around with ranging turned on (why would you ever turn it off?), rangers should have to actively search for scents, which would require standing still and waiting for about as long as it takes to prospect (after pushing the search button, of course). Maybe make it so that searching requires some materials, to discourage search spamming. Searching should reveal all scents in a small area that you make a high enough roll for.

The last item in particular would help thieves a ton. If you steal just a bit, chances are that the victim won't even notice, so nobody will search in the crime area before the scents expire. I think we all want to encourage surgical theft as opposed to the current "take everything you want and destroy the rest" style of theft.

[CG62]

Maybe make it so that searching requires some materials, to discourage search spamming.

That, and perhaps a lockpick for thieves (costing a little more than whatever is required for rangers to track) that has the potential to break in the lock, but negates the need for a character of godlike strength to steal.

[kobnach]

Anyhow, thievery is, for me, exciting and fun. I agree that there's no risk, but I think risk should be created in the options that thieves have in how they steal, their use of skills, and their ability to cleverly manipulate their environment. I don't think risk should be manifested entirely in the hands of rangers. I just went over why that won't solve our problems and would most likely make them worse.

I suppose another option would be for thievery to be like swimming. Every time you use it, you have a chance to perma-die, e.g. if lag happens. (Perhaps you take continuous damage, and have to move to stop it - so if lag comes, or your connection drops, you're dead.) Since I don't like thieves, perhaps it would be interesting to have thieving always on, such that an accidental misclick can start this sequence - just as with swimming misclicks when near a river, before the swimming toggle.

[theTrav]

I suppose another option would be for thievery to be like swimming. Every time you use it, you have a chance to perma-die, e.g. if lag happens. (Perhaps you take continuous damage, and have to move to stop it - so if lag comes, or your connection drops, you're dead.)

No No, As soon as you thieve, you are paralysed. Permanantly. Then some wild wolves are spawned next to you and they try to rip out your stomache. Then the server checks for other accounts that have been logged on to by your ip and force summons them at RoB, causes them to drop their entire inventories on the ground and then sprint north (pathfinding around obstacles) until the owner logs in. Those characters are no longer able to use travel, ever.

And then maybe do something to the actual person's eyelids involving glue, razor blades or acid.

Lets try to be a bit more reasonable ey?

[Pacho]

kobnach is just an elaborate troll

edit: J&L please implement trolls already

[Jackard]

broccoli men