Game Rename

[Ferinex]

who want to play like JTG and Ferinex.

Whoawhoawhoa, what? Back it up a fucking mile, what about me? I have a farm in a peaceful city. Why am I even being used in the same paragraph as JTG?

[theTrav]

Whoawhoawhoa, what? Back it up a fucking mile, what about me? I have a farm in a peaceful city. Why am I even being used in the same paragraph as JTG?

My apologies, I have absolutely no idea how you play, I picked up your name from the quote and didn't think when I added it. I will edit my post to remove it

[Dondy]

I guess my post where I said thief is the only practical option was really directed at the Dev's. To my way of thinking nobody with even minimal social skills would consider becoming a vandal/thief. I wasn't recruiting! Thief is the province of people who aren't competent enough to try any other tracks and I figured that was obvious, which it wasn't. Sorry I didn't make myself plain. My post was meant to express the feeling that the antisocial developments have so far out-paced the pro-social developments that most of the other tracks have been rendered unplayable _at the moment_. What I was trying to say is that the options I can see at this time are #1 turn thief or #2 don't play. #1 is not actually on the table. If I wanted to be a destruction machine I would get a nice first person shooter game and kill pixels, not pee on other real life people's doormats.

I truly hope the game is tweaked and repaired to where it can become something other than a forum for people moving methodically through the game destroying things, but at the moment it's not. Right now I am trying to find anyone in my circle of friends who are actually willing to go on playing. I'm told that a nice game of bridge is looking attractive and hearing doubtful lines like "Maybe we could check back in a month...."

I don't think we could all move down to an established community in a body. Established communities are able to do things like have an armed player on 24/7 to babysit the baskets but integrating us as a job lot of refugees would not be easy. Refugee is not the most appealing game role either. I don't see any fix for this except major game changes and those may not occur. The Dev's want theives and there seem to be a lot of pro-conflict players. This sandbox game is looking increasingly more like a litterbox. (apologies to the dev's for the snarky remark)

[kobnach]

OK, The following is a response to TheTrav, but the quoting is getting out of hand.

First of all, Dondy has no need to trade with you for leather, as long as my stuff doesn't get griefed into oblivion; I gave him the leather for his last outfit, after some griefer (presumably JTG) dumped everything in his camp once again. I too once lived in the area JTG is now taking over; I'm now in the process of moving as far into the Utengard as I think I've got the stats and skills to survive. Unfortunately the latest upgrade caught me between houses, with everything on the ground - and game crashes preventing me from getting significant in-game daylight playing time; I'm not sure what I'll find left when I do manage to log on.

This wouldn't bug me if I thought it would be a rare or unique occurrence - rebuilding will produce a lot of LP - but the truth is, between griefers and crashes, I've spent way too much time replacing the same old thing. Yet that's nowhere near as frequently as Dondy has had to do it. I'm amazed he's still playing.

As for moving towards tradition well, I feel I'm living dangerously and ought to be moving my beliefs, even though I hate the LP cost I'd pay for it. I also have one in game friend who's already full tradition - though perhaps not as much for this reason as because he's concluded that he might as well take up thieving.

This part of your argument is deeply flawed in that the majority of the player base AND THE DEVS do NOT want to attract more players who want to play like JTG and Ferinex. You may have misinterpreted their statements that griefers are useful in tuning to have meant that that is their end goal.

I hope this is true. The way in which this last change happened - and the responses on the forum - have convinced me otherwise. There are presently three people, in the whole game, who are expressing the view that the latest change makes things insecure - and several disagreeing with what I consider a minimum requirement for anything meriting the name of Haven. I was so happy when Loftar fixed the behind-objects bug; I thought perhaps the game was going to reach a happy midpoint between griefer/conflict lovers and builders/role players. It lasted three whole days and then the balance was tipped again. I just can't believe this was accidental - having the ability to store 8 or maybe 12 objects - safely - and leave other things outdoors without having them trivially destroyable - was just too much security and peace for the developers to find acceptable. Now there's no security at all - just the hope that someday there may be locks, requiring resources I'll probably need security just to produce (i.e. steel etc.), and likely trivially smashable by players bigger than me, not to mention players with dozens of alts and no real world jobs.

{Edit] The name "Havoc and Hatred" is not a serious suggestion. But something like "Conflict in Eden" might be. I think the conflict needs to be brought front and center in the name, and the implication of secure development removed.

[kobnach]

who want to play like JTG and Ferinex.

Whoawhoawhoa, what? Back it up a fucking mile, what about me? I have a farm in a peaceful city. Why am I even being used in the same paragraph as JTG?

Because you said peaceful development was boring, somewhere in one of the threads in response to today's changes. JTG said much the same thing.

As far as I know, you are a nicer person - the sort who might feel guilty if they took a thief/griefer strategy in a game where that wasn't supposed to be the standard pattern. But it seems to me from your postings that you'd prefer a game where that sort of thing was the norm, not just something done by nasty people to upset others.

[Dondy]

[quote="theTrav"] I don't see a lot of players when I play because of my time zone, but if forum activity is anything to go by, there's perhaps 2 or 3 active thief players and around 10-30 active non thief players. That's far from outnumbering us.

How often do you go down to RoB? Every other time I go down there some different player approaches me asking if I am interested in joining in to a life of crime. If I wanted to get hit for slander I could point out a couple of names on forum of people who either are reputed to have stolen, or whom I know pilfered from my camp. I may not kill thieves by tracking them to their hearth fires but I do make a point of knowing who thought it was easier to steal than to ask, or to go produce for themself.

But seriously there seems to be a huge factor here of your experience and mine differing. It's heartening to hear that you aren't being hit by thieves twice in twenty-four hours each day but unfortunately that doesn't seem applicable to the situation of the people I hang out with.

[theTrav]

OK, The following is a response to TheTrav, but the quoting is getting out of hand.

meaning you don't want to address anything I've actually said?

First of all, Dondy has no need to trade with you for leather, as long as my stuff doesn't get griefed into oblivion; I gave him the leather for his last outfit

Ok, good for you, I think he was implying that he wasn't able to get leather together and using that as evidence that thieves always win. This is obviously not the case.

As for moving towards tradition well, I feel I'm living dangerously and ought to be moving my beliefs, even though I hate the LP cost I'd pay for it.

The risk to LP payoff is deliberate and I don't believe it has any bearing on whether thieves or griefers win. I'd also hazard a guess that your character has all the available skills and high enough combat abilities to kill bears. Therefore the only benefit you're going to get from your increased LP is in PVP. Would you prefer to have PVP with no risk? That's not what the game about.

I also have one in game friend who's already full tradition - though perhaps not as much for this reason as because he's concluded that he might as well take up thieving.

full tradition thief ey? How's he finding that? Is it giving him real enjoyment/happiness? or is he just satisfying his bitterness and need for revenge?

There are presently three people, in the whole game, who are expressing the view that the latest change makes things insecure

Think about what you're saying there... I don't think anyone would disagree that this change makes things less secure... In fact I believe that's entirely the INTENT of this change. No vaults, and no blocking people off.

and several disagreeing with what I consider a minimum requirement for anything meriting the name of Haven.

Your minimum requirement appears to be the ability to play with zero risk. That's not what the game is about any more than 100% griefers and thieves.

Now there's no security at all

1 - If you can manage to form a large enough community to have players on and vigilant around the clock you will have your security. Bottleneck has come close with about 14 players.
2 - There's no ABSOLUTE security, but there are several limited security measures available without counting revenge (which obviously isn't security).

requiring resources I'll probably need security just to produce (i.e. steel etc.)

If you can't produce it you can trade for it, having resources that not everyone could produce is something I very much want and I don't think it makes thieves win.

and likely trivially smashable by players bigger than me,

That's another negative assumption that I also think is incorrect. Currently even really strong players will take a fair while to smash up a cart. I'd imagine smashing a decent lock will take as long or longer.

The name "Havoc and Hatred" is not a serious suggestion. But something like "Conflict in Eden" might be. I think the conflict needs to be brought front and center in the name, and the implication of secure development removed.

I think that's a more appropriate suggestion, but still I think you're being negative, and I don't think it's what the dev's want to encourage, nor something that should do.

[JTG]

To dondy earlier in the thread.

The fight for the uprising crime was one contributed to by many, by which many people have left due to loss of character, or overall inability to play.

Before shadyacres crime was nonexistant. With the arrival of us crime poked its head it was still not a threat. Overtime crime ingame gained more and more members, with a total of 4 in my group and 3 in group 2, and a variance of 1-3 straggler thiefs. Group 1 and Group 2 are dead. Group 2 tried to contact group 1, but due to the fact we were hard people to find they failed at that and disappeared. I haven't kept track of the 3 straggler thiefs. The last one I saw was a good 4 weeks ago. I only know of one other griefer, who seemingly hates me and wants to ruin me, and he took over my job. There are a few murderers in training.

Said murderers will take over our place in the grand scheme of crime and evil, and push the balance more towards anarchy. Where thieving and griefing only managed to push it so far.

The current state of the game is the victory of more than just me.

Unable to fight you people on even grounds, due to the time difference and the fact you are well settled in we chose to instead use guerilla warfare to destroy your morale and win another sort of victory.
This is griefing.

Edit: Also I hate to mention it but I had tons of fun, and I got lots of laughs out of turning your hard work into clownshoes.

It just goes to show you by the earlier comment where he is asked if he wants to join a life of crime that evil will become a normal in the game where a neutral/good standpoint once used to dominate social order.

Players like Blaze and Milaha were the finest fighters for order there were, they were swift, effecient, and cunning at destroying our attempts. Blaze is on hiatus and Milaha is gone. People like sami and hamel only fuel our kind, resulting in more destruction on everything to the path to them.

Believe me, these murderers in training talk to me. They are undoubtedly the strongest in the game, and there is more than one. They do not talk to each other though. So I imagine they will wipe each other out with the survivor being some sort of evil dark lord.

Another edit. The majority of populace prefer Good/Neutral but due to successful negative recipricol feedback loops (A psychology term). Newbies are getting exposed to more community from the thief/griefer side than from the kind developing side that dondy and kobnach represent.

All in all, I leave griefing to griefer #2 who will now be griefer 1#. I look forward to feeling the effects you all once felt and more with the oncoming onslaught of murdering that is slowly coming over the horizon.
As being a silk merchant interests me.

[Hamel]

People like sami and hamel only fuel our kind, resulting in more destruction on everything to the path to them.

Query, why do you speak of me in this manner? You know nothing of me.

The following is a response to this entire thread:

[JTG]

Griefing people who show any kind of response is fun. Griefing people who say nothing gets boring and ultimately meaningless for the purposes that its done.