Developer Thoughts on PvP

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby MagicManICT » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:25 pm

Scilly_guy wrote:
I try not to think "realism" belongs in a game, although in HnH it fits better than most. I find a real world precedent makes more sense, then people can understand why something happens.


Actually, realism creeps into just about any game on some level. Without any realism, we'd have little connection on how to actually play the game. I've seen some of these games. They are bizarre to say the least. Even then, they don't get rid of everything.
Opinions expressed in this statement are the authors alone and in no way reflect on the game development values of the actual developers.
User avatar
MagicManICT
 
Posts: 18436
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:47 am

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Jackard » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:13 am

sometimes when people mention realism what they mean is simulation
User avatar
Jackard
 
Posts: 8849
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:07 am
Location: fucking curios how do they work

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Kavalion » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:06 pm

jorb wrote:When one adopts and understands this perspective, it becomes clear as sparkling morning dew on a well mowed lawn that there does not exist a clear divide between offensive and peaceful actions.


Obviously, the divide is that a peaceful act would be occupying a tile that no one has interest in. If someone develops an interest in the tile, the peaceful act is to move from it and occupy another tile. Peaceful action is simply accommodating the will of others. Taken to the extreme, if their will is to crucify you, then you martyr yourself. This, of course, reinforces the point that it is not possible to deny PvP and remain peaceful.
Kavalion
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:09 am

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Pictor » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:30 am

The problem with "realism" as a problem solver in MMOs is that all MMOs share a single unremovable unrealistic trait: Specifically, the separation of player and avatar.


In the real world, there are a few barriers to "exit"; Firstly, you don't know what happens after you die. Secondly, it's final; You can't come back in a new body. Thirdly, most people have a general reluctance to die hardwired into them. None of these things exist in an MMO.

Then there's the whole aspect of not being able to be in control of our body at all times. In the real world, we sleep. We can be awoken. In an MMO, if you don't have access to a computer, you can not be awoken. You don't sleep in a house, you simply shift into stasis and cease to exist. In HnH, your body can be pulled from the ether and killed via scents, but you're still not "awake"; It's like pulling somebody from stasis to find they're in a coma.

What makes matters worse is that a lack of barrier to exit means that players won't put up with much shit. There are no starving africans or slaves in MMOs. If they're not enjoying themselves, they'll simply leave. This is one of the massively overlooked reasons why old school UO actually survived as long as it did; Because there was no other choice. If you wanted to play an MMO, there it was. Once a choice was presented (Everquest, namely) the slaves and sheep who were tired of being shat on simply left for greener pastures.

Finally, a player who wants to hang around, will. You won't be able to get rid of them. The only way to kill somebody in an MMO is to make them want to die.


The point of all this is that it throws off a lot of traditional solutions. Fear of retribution is severely weakened, meaning it's effectively impossible to discourage people who are determined to be assholes. Also, execution doesn't serve as long term protection. The guy can just come on back in a new body if he wants. At best, you inconvenience him.

The ultimate issue with this is that if you have a poor system, you drive off a lot of people. Some of the more tenacious fans are so thick that they see the bleeding of players who don't agree with them as a good thing. The assumed goal of any MMO is to cater to the developer's desires. Usually, "having a large playerbase" is one of those desires. It can be secondary to other desires, but it's still significant. Incidentally, is it just me, or is the active playerbase about half the size that it was at the end of world 4? Whatever, I'm rambling.


Don't fool yourselves; Haven and Hearth is not, in fact, lawless. Lawless would mean no claims and no scents. No, Haven and Hearth follows a very simple rule:

First Come, First Serve.

Consequences exist purely for those who seek to violate that rule. Scents are left in violation of that rule. It doesn't matter why you did what you did. All that matters is that you violated that rule. He laid a claim there. He found that rock first. He decided to stand there before you arrived. He was there first, and that's all that matters. Scents are simply consequences for contesting that rule. The fact is, a swarm of newbies can block in a player anyway. A sufficiently advanced player may indeed be able to kill those who do, but the game still treats him as if he violated the golden rule.

The key which separates HnH from most MMOs is that you CAN break its golden rule (with enough LP, at least).

And that's the real beef of it. You have your rules, and those rules can either be broken or not, and if you can break the rule, it must have consequences. Two things define the rule: How difficult it is to break, and, assuming you can break it, how severe are the consequences? In HnH, the difficulty of breaking the rule depends on the action (murder, theft). The consequence severity depends on how severely you broke the rule. In WoW, you can't break the golden rule when it comes to people on your faction. In Eve, you can break the rule anywhere, and the consequences depend on where you break the rule. And then there's war declaration and what have you.

HnH actually has a very, very simple ruleset. And it could be expanded. Village vs Village Warfare, for example, as a means of altering (or removing) the consequences of violating the golden rule. Retribution allowing trespassing and theft in order to recover stolen goods without consequence. But these are just thoughts off the top of my head.

The main point is to realize that the rules do exist, and they can be tampered with.

This wall of text has gone on too long.
Pictor
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby sabinati » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:36 pm

what, you don't think there is village vs village warfare?
User avatar
sabinati
 
Posts: 15513
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:25 am
Location: View active topics

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Pictor » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:36 pm

sabinati wrote:what, you don't think there is village vs village warfare?


Not in any way that the game actually recognizes as such, no. I think you missed the points I was trying to make.
Pictor
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Potjeh » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:48 pm

So much words, so little content. Son, you should go into politics.
Image Bottleneck
User avatar
Potjeh
 
Posts: 11812
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 4:03 pm

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Pictor » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:21 pm

Potjeh wrote:So much words, so little content.


Most of the content in my post is pretty high level design stuff; It's not really the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate. I'm an obsessive nut, and I'm terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level. Sorry about that.
Pictor
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby MagicManICT » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:30 pm

Pictor wrote:
Potjeh wrote:So much words, so little content.


Most of the content in my post is pretty high level design stuff; It's not really the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate. I'm an obsessive nut, and I'm terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level. Sorry about that.


Potjeh is right. The first sentence is the killer for the whole post. Are you trying to speak to a group of gamers or a psychology/sociology class?
Opinions expressed in this statement are the authors alone and in no way reflect on the game development values of the actual developers.
User avatar
MagicManICT
 
Posts: 18436
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:47 am

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Skorm » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:39 pm

MagicManICT wrote:
Pictor wrote:
Potjeh wrote:So much words, so little content.


Most of the content in my post is pretty high level design stuff; It's not really the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate. I'm an obsessive nut, and I'm terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level. Sorry about that.


Potjeh is right. The first sentence is the killer for the whole post. Are you trying to speak to a group of gamers or a psychology/sociology class?


he wants to blow Newb´s Mind
d_datica wrote:Get the damn server back up before I go back to having a life

USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST

~art By SacreDoom
User avatar
Skorm
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am
Location: on a house, with a computer

PreviousNext

Return to Critique & Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests