Stats not permanent

[Scubas]

snip

While I agree with what you've said regarding progression based crafting things and buckets, I would propose that instead of random tools and mundane items giving you stat experience, maybe there could be a crafting interface similar to curiosities, that could be used for the specific purpose of gaining levels in any given stat. The two could even be combined, in the sense that your dexterity can be raised if you make enough horrible knots (considering you would use your fingers to knot it all up), then you could subsequently study the knot. It would make the "stat grinding" serve an alternate purpose, rather than just having 10,000 buckets lying randomly about.

Also, neither I or Danno are vying for this FEP buff system to be integrated within the personal beliefs system, merely that it would be 'similar' to it; a gameplay feature that doesn't make or break the game, it's just there as something else that a player can do to modify their gameplay.

All in all, I agree with the point Danno made in the OP, that eating a honey bun gives you a 'sugar rush' or something, but why would you feel that effect permanently? I just don't feel that eating food should affect your character that much. You can eat a lot of fish(considered 'brain food' in some circles) but without studying something, it won't make you smart just because you ate it. You can eat a lot of protein, but if you don't work out, you don't get any muscle just because you ate it. In addition, I don't think that afk-sparring would be an issue in haven. All the devs have to do is simply make it so that perhaps depending on certain elements of the fight (i.e. duration, key presses/activity, whatever) there is potential for a combat based stat to be awarded. At any rate, maybe I'm just lobbying for there to be some sort of slight incentive to spar, rather than just having practice with combat.

[Danno]

that means you'll HAVE to build a ram to get in. so build a ram and sit right beside it for 24 hours so noone destroys it before you can use it(easilly destroyed by the way, and you'll have to be able to kill anyone who comes to destroy it). if you still don't see the problem then I suggest you actually play HnH for a while and see how things work then you'll understand the problem with this idea.

Wow, so you have to put some effort into destroying someone else's months of effort as opposed to feasting all day and being able to singlehandedly destroy someone's palisade at a moment's notice.

Maybe you should be willing to actually interact with other players and fight them if you're intending to raid someone's settlement instead of living by your cowardly and risk-free code.

to the guy who said palisades are solid wood please remember it takes 3 blocks of wood to make each palisade section and 2 blocks of wood to make clogs...

If you want to argue realism, keep in mind you can punch a bear to death in this game without taking any damage as it swats at you if you boost your stats high enough.

think of it this way, you(the real you not your character) live in a house: anyone at any time can walk up and kick in your door and try to kill you. whats the risk to them? the risk is that its against the law and there are punishments for breaking the law if you're caught...so basicly thats the same as leaving criminal scents.

Think of it this way: this isn't real life, it's a game set in a more primitive age where people have to build palisades around their homes to keep intruders out. In those days, the risk was that someone would go wake up all the archers and soldiers so they can prevent the intrusion. That is not an option in this game, however. This isn't the same as busting the lock off of someone's shed in the backyard and stealing their bicycle. When you try to break into someone's village, you're declaring war and doing an all out siege.

Again, your utopia is a system where the strong are invincible and the weak are defenseless. What's a village of low to mid level players gonna do if you leave scents lying around? That's not even any form of punishment on your side. Come on, you know they don't have the means to bash your brickwall down, let alone fight you even if they could. So basically, you want to punish them because they started the game later, they might have a job irl, and they aren't your ally.

lets keep with my previous scenario, would someone sit outside a house 24 hours before going in to rob it with a big sign telling everyone they plan to rob that house? if you're sitting around a place with a ram thats pretty much what you're doing telling everyone you're about to break into a place!

That's the idea. It'd work better if people weren't x-raying about since then you could at least try to hide it behind a tree, but it would still be possible for the villagers to find it and thwart the attack. Perhaps they could code some cloaking mechanism that would behave in a similar manner and not be capable of being ruined by custom clients.

meaning if this is implemented when someone builds a BW they are 100% safe and that wall will never go anywhere!

*The more permanent stat could be raised if you maybe get 3 of the same FEP level up in a row
*I don't expect them to take my suggestion and implement it exactly as is, but perhaps it could give them ideas to an alternate system.
*For example, you could have 193 strength, 2 intelligence, and 1 of each other stat.

The point is a painfully, impossibly disproportionate amount of output for input. For 3 wood blocks you can effectively stop the most endgame of all raiders ever and no player might be able to tear down your work for years after you've left.

What are you talking about? I don't recall saying that battering rams should be removed while everyone is limited to a cap that makes it impossible to singlehandedly destroy a wall.

Danno's suggestion at its core isn't great; it's to make the core of character development impermanent and fluid. In doing so you force specialization on players, as the investment to gain stats is the same, and thus changing your direction would hamper any value you would otherwise provide. You could always make stats cheap but that's against the nature of what Danno wants and it'd also make the core of infrastructure mostly pointless. Alternatively you could rework everything else to fit the system and its reduced levels of effectiveness but that has the same cheapening effect.

This is certainly debatable, but nobody is debating the core idea. They're just nitpicking about values I gave as examples and whining about how they won't be able to make overpowered characters and keep strolling along easy street. Perhaps my suggestion wouldn't solve any of this game's problems - that's entirely possible. It is just one potential solution I thought up.

I'd argue that it takes away meaning from the game but I'd be wasting my breath because just about everyone else already understands that. Character development is a thing of fun and beauty.

I beg to differ. Grinding to get your stats up is easily the most tedious, repetitive, and boring part of MMOs. Many of them will require you to grind to get a few level ups before you can move to the next area. The grinding consists of pressing the same attack/skill button to kill the same enemy to get the same amount of experience until you have eventually killed 1000 of that enemy in that manner. We are humans, not robots. Humans prefer something a little more, I dunno, engaging?
H&H is worse than other MMOs in that department, though, since you don't even unlock new areas or features as you "develop" your character. The only thing you get is q100 instead of q99, which in turn lets you get q30 of something you previously had q29 on.

H&H's selling point is that you can shape the land around you and build something in a world that other players can see and interact with. It has other fun/interesting aspects, such as crafting, meeting international players, working together as a village, a unique combat system, full PvP in a hostile environment, and the general humour of the game. If you think quality and grinding is the best part of the game, you're honestly pretty blind and tasteless. You may as well be playing Maple Story if numbers are all you care about.

So much focus on numbers makes the game seem less like a game. Wouldn't you rather play than do math and pre-plan your character for the next 3 months? Progressing a character through stats and grinding is arguably the worst aspect of MMOs. Thank you for your valuable input to this topic.

I dunno what's so hard to understand about that, really.

Yeah but, saying no to obviously stupid ideas is a good thing to do.

The only reason you think it's "obviously stupid" is because it dethrones the grinders and no-lifers. You are also afraid of change and want this game to be as easy and risk-free as possible.

I think a better pursuit would be to ask what it is that is detrimenting your play and what about it is.

Grinding. Grinding, grinding, and more grinding. Then permadeath with very heavy penalties so you can start over. This game's appeal is drastically reduced after you establish yourself because there's no longer anything interesting to do. Nobody wants to fight because:
a) You're out of your league if you don't dedicate your life to this game.
b) Nobody wants to risk fighting/dying due to the grinding and harsh permadeath.

Also you suggest some combat changes which should be in a separate post. Combat is currently broken and is a Stat/s v Stat/s game with a much lower skill cap then should be allowed. And its almost impossible to learn as you can almost never find anyone to fight who will be at the same level as you.

Well, I didn't touch on the combat much since that's a whole other topic, but the skill values are basically the same ideas as the stat attributes. I believe competition should not be predetermined by any numbers.

It's also nearly unanimously agreed upon that the slider system is terrible. Most people just want the personal belief system axed as it spends more time detrimenting play than anything else. Trying to mold other systems into it is not a good idea. What makes it terrible is that it promotes not doing anything for as long as possible until your sliders are maxed and then you're just on par with everyone else. It is an artificial wait time that punishes you for trying to do things such as playing the game.

I think it's a good idea in theory, just that Tradition is too useless and Change is too necessary. If it weren't for the sliders, I'd have an army of combat alts instead of just 1 alt since the afk time is too bothersome. I think it promotes playing on a real character and actually playing the game.
Anyhow, it's nearly unanimously agreed upon that it's terrible because everyone wants a clear path to success with the lowest effort possible. That doesn't necessarily mean the system is terrible, it just means everyone wants q1000 shit to be coming out of their ass and they want it now.

Activity based progression, while it sounds fun on paper, in practice is a horrible concept. As we have learned, it lends itself towards players performing activities that are most ideal towards grinding something rather than doing anything productive. What you end up with is an economy for play meant to gain stats through meaningless actions.

Sounds awfully familiar.

I really don't have any interest in raising stats/skill values. H&H should have much heavier focus on how you actually play the game and how you interact with the environment and people around you.

[SuperNoob]

that means you'll HAVE to build a ram to get in. so build a ram and sit right beside it for 24 hours so noone destroys it before you can use it(easilly destroyed by the way, and you'll have to be able to kill anyone who comes to destroy it). if you still don't see the problem then I suggest you actually play HnH for a while and see how things work then you'll understand the problem with this idea.

Wow, so you have to put some effort into destroying someone else's months of effort as opposed to feasting all day and being able to singlehandedly destroy someone's palisade at a moment's notice.

Maybe you should be willing to actually interact with other players and fight them if you're intending to raid someone's settlement instead of living by your cowardly and risk-free code.

pps: I'm not a raider, and I rarely kill people here. I do however know there are many ways to stay safe in this game and that if someone comes along to grief you its serious hell trying to get revenge...do you realize with this system in place griefers will still grief, but theres no way to ever get retribution.

and if it takes you more than 3 days to get a palisade around your place you're doing something wrong, so its not months of work unless you're a retard!

think of it this way, you(the real you not your character) live in a house: anyone at any time can walk up and kick in your door and try to kill you. whats the risk to them? the risk is that its against the law and there are punishments for breaking the law if you're caught...so basicly thats the same as leaving criminal scents.

Think of it this way: this isn't real life, it's a game set in a more primitive age where people have to build palisades around their homes to keep intruders out. In those days, the risk was that someone would go wake up all the archers and soldiers so they can prevent the intrusion. That is not an option in this game, however. This isn't the same as busting the lock off of someone's shed in the backyard and stealing their bicycle. When you try to break into someone's village, you're declaring war and doing an all out siege.

where at any point in history has a person ever built a palisade(or any other defensive structure for that matter) around their house? palisades/ramparts are military structures, built to keep armies out. a single house in the middle of nowhere(basic build of the supposed eras in which the game is set) would be far easier to rob than a modern house, so don't be a dumb ass like Scubas, we're not talking about going to a town and bashing in the gates/walls, we're talking about a single residence.

Again, your utopia is a system where the strong are invincible and the weak are defenseless. What's a village of low to mid level players gonna do if you leave scents lying around? That's not even any form of punishment on your side. Come on, you know they don't have the means to bash your brickwall down, let alone fight you even if they could. So basically, you want to punish them because they started the game later, they might have a job irl, and they aren't your ally.

seems like your reading comprehension isn't that great:

pps: I'm not a raider, and I rarely kill people here. I do however know there are many ways to stay safe in this game and that if someone comes along to grief you its serious hell trying to get revenge...do you realize with this system in place griefers will still grief, but theres no way to ever get retribution.

I don't invision a Utopia in this game, that would be like trying to get prime rib at McDonalds. I play it, I have fun, I know how the basic mechanics of the game work(its on the wiki if you want to take a look) and that when destroying anything strength plays a major part in that, and by limitting someone's strength you're then limitting what they can destroy making it so any griefer(who will have those max stats) that comes along and fucks you over is perfectly safe behind their BW...its not just noobs that hide behind walls

lets keep with my previous scenario, would someone sit outside a house 24 hours before going in to rob it with a big sign telling everyone they plan to rob that house? if you're sitting around a place with a ram thats pretty much what you're doing telling everyone you're about to break into a place!

That's the idea. It'd work better if people weren't x-raying about since then you could at least try to hide it behind a tree, but it would still be possible for the villagers to find it and thwart the attack. Perhaps they could code some cloaking mechanism that would behave in a similar manner and not be capable of being ruined by custom clients.

how silly is it to stand 4 feet from someone and not be able to see them because theres a tree "over" them? custom clients add options like hide objects because not being able to see behind a tree(even when you're behind that tree) is pretty stupid! I will give you there should be a line of sight thing in the game, but that wouldn't help with hiding behind a tree...

meaning if this is implemented when someone builds a BW they are 100% safe and that wall will never go anywhere!

*The more permanent stat could be raised if you maybe get 3 of the same FEP level up in a row
*I don't expect them to take my suggestion and implement it exactly as is, but perhaps it could give them ideas to an alternate system.
*For example, you could have 193 strength, 2 intelligence, and 1 of each other stat.

If you'd get another FEP level up for strength, you'd have 194 strength, 1 intelligence, and be unable to increase your strength any further, but you could shift your stats around if you eat non-strength foods.

do you want to change the basic idea now? I only went with the 194 because YOU said it was max

Danno's suggestion at its core isn't great; it's to make the core of character development impermanent and fluid. In doing so you force specialization on players, as the investment to gain stats is the same, and thus changing your direction would hamper any value you would otherwise provide. You could always make stats cheap but that's against the nature of what Danno wants and it'd also make the core of infrastructure mostly pointless. Alternatively you could rework everything else to fit the system and its reduced levels of effectiveness but that has the same cheapening effect.

This is certainly debatable, but nobody is debating the core idea. They're just nitpicking about values I gave as examples and whining about how they won't be able to make overpowered characters and keep strolling along easy street. Perhaps my suggestion wouldn't solve any of this game's problems - that's entirely possible. It is just one potential solution I thought up.

the core of your idea is to make it harder to grind stats, that also keeps newbs(those you seem to think this idea would help) from improving any since they wouldn't have the infrastructure to get the needed stats while the big factions would...this wouldn't solve any problems, it would only do 2 things:
1 make the game crappier
2 cause more problems in the game

I'd argue that it takes away meaning from the game but I'd be wasting my breath because just about everyone else already understands that. Character development is a thing of fun and beauty.

I beg to differ. Grinding to get your stats up is easily the most tedious, repetitive, and boring part of MMOs. Many of them will require you to grind to get a few level ups before you can move to the next area. The grinding consists of pressing the same attack/skill button to kill the same enemy to get the same amount of experience until you have eventually killed 1000 of that enemy in that manner. We are humans, not robots. Humans prefer something a little more, I dunno, engaging?
H&H is worse than other MMOs in that department, though, since you don't even unlock new areas or features as you "develop" your character. The only thing you get is q100 instead of q99, which in turn lets you get q30 of something you previously had q29 on.

of course grinding is tedious, but you don't have to do it! if you don't want to do it and others do isn't it kind of stupid to punish them? if you put your money in a bank and let it draw interest(grinding) while someone else spends every penny they have(not grinding) will the 2 of you have the same amount in your retirement fund when you hit 65? in online games, much like in life, the person that invests the most will usually end up with the most...of course there are other factors in life(rich relatives, getting lucky and winning the lottery), but in this game all that is removed because we all start the exact same way!

[Scubas]

I personally am getting to a point where I am thinking of calling it as I see it; by that I mean Super Noob, you are a fucking idiot, plain and simple.

I am not insulting you purely for the sake of doing so. You are clearly a moron, and you should eat your own words.

seems like your reading comprehension isn't that great

Said pot to kettle. Allow me to elaborate:

and if it takes you more than 3 days to get a palisade around your place you're doing something wrong, so its not months of work unless you're a retard!

Seems like your reading comprehension isn't that great. It doesn't take months of work to make a palisade. It DOES however, take months of work to collect various items, curiosities, and other things any given player would treasure and want to keep. That is what he meant. God damn, it honestly should not be that difficult to understand.

where at any point in history has a person ever built a palisade(or any other defensive structure for that matter) around their house?

Really? You're serious? GOOGLE THE WORD "FENCE". It is unbelievably ironic that you called me a dumbass in this paragraph after spouting probably one of the dumbest questions I've heard in a long time.

I know how the basic mechanics of the game work

Clearly.

do you want to change the basic idea now? I only went with the 194 because YOU said it was max

I believe you missed the giant, red, underlined part where he said FOR EXAMPLE.

of course grinding is tedious, but you don't have to do it! if you don't want to do it and others do isn't it kind of stupid to punish them? if you put your money in a bank and let it draw interest(grinding) while someone else spends every penny they have(not grinding) will the 2 of you have the same amount in your retirement fund when you hit 65? in online games, much like in life, the person that invests the most will usually end up with the most...of course there are other factors in life(rich relatives, getting lucky and winning the lottery), but in this game all that is removed because we all start the exact same way!

I am so glad you saved the most idiotic post for last.

1. Blatant contradiction - You don't have to grind stats, oh wait, yeah you do.
2. Terrible comparison of grinding in mmorpgs to garnering interest through banking. (i.e. doing repetitive tasks over and over vs. doing nothing at all)
3. And the coup de grace, the shining jewel in your moron crown: "because we all start the exact same way!"

I know how the basic mechanics of the game work

...Clearly.

Actually, I'm sorry Super Noob, you might be better off calling yourself "Ultra Noob" because no....no, everyone does not start the exact same way. Some people are late to worlds, some people spawn next to bears, some people spawn next to immaculate quality resources, some people spawn next to barely any resources, some people spawn not knowing what they're meant to do; I could go on for a long time. It is truly amazing that you feel ''all of those things involving luck are removed'' because guess what. It's the exact opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with luck being involved in where you spawn, at all. I think it's actually pretty interesting that you never know where you may end up when you first join. I'm just calling you out on your bullshit. You've said 3 times now that you think I'm an idiot just because you disagree with what I say? Well, buddy, here's me calling you a fucking idiot because let's face it, you are one.

[NOOBY93]

I agree with Scubas on the "getting lucky" part and "late-join" part.
But damn, dude, no need to go to insults.

[Scubas]

But damn, dude, no need to go to insults.

You may, or may not have read through most of the thread, but:

Raids on places should be an organized ordeal. Not just one asshole meandering up and destroying torso-thick walls and instantly gaining access to everything within. In a game based around survival and semi-realism, the thought of that being a thing you can do is just absolutely retarded in my opinion.

Several times.

to anyone who isn't a dumb ass sorry about the text wall...

you're a retard!

seems like your reading comprehension isn't that great:

If his head hadn't have been jammed so far up his ass to begin with, perhaps I wouldn't be so inclined. Considering I have been called a dumbass around probably ten times now, I think it's ethically okay at this point. Too bad what I've said isn't really ''insults'' though, to be honest. Just harshly worded truth, if anything.

I have nothing personal against anyone in this thread, I just want to make that clear. It's just sort of bold to call another person stupid and then proceed to say hilariously stupid shit, yourself, and I think that's well worth pointing out.

[TeckXKnight]

I agree with Scubas on the "getting lucky" part and "late-join" part.
But damn, dude, no need to go to insults.

Insults are fine as long as they're not going into like, extreme racism or something. Both sides have been slinging them, no need to cry about it. =)
I'll be honest in that this thread has become too tl;dr for me so I don't actually know whats been said, but it's probably nothing over the line.

[cloakblade]

Also you suggest some combat changes which should be in a separate post. Combat is currently broken and is a Stat/s v Stat/s game with a much lower skill cap then should be allowed. And its almost impossible to learn as you can almost never find anyone to fight who will be at the same level as you.

Well, I didn't touch on the combat much since that's a whole other topic, but the skill values are basically the same ideas as the stat attributes. I believe competition should not be predetermined by any numbers.

The problem is that is the system the entire game is based around. Whether it be the quality of the Armor you wear, the weapon you wield, the skills you have, the stats you've gained, its all a continuous grind upward. This is the game as it is currently implemented and although I think that a game that has mechanics more like what you want I think you need to look at the overall problems of the game.

where at any point in history has a person ever built a palisade(or any other defensive structure for that matter) around their house?

Really? You're serious? GOOGLE THE WORD "FENCE". It is unbelievably ironic that you called me a dumbass in this paragraph after spouting probably one of the dumbest questions I've heard in a long time.

A fence is different than a Palisade we infact have fences in Haven and Hearth.

Two core differences from Real Life and Haven exist to me. First is the lower risk involved, death of a character v death in real life. Second being that the real world is a lot more dangerous than the world in Haven and Hearth (outside of the people which is about equal probably). Oh and I guess a third could be you wake up in the middle of the night.

[NOOBY93]

I agree with Scubas on the "getting lucky" part and "late-join" part.
But damn, dude, no need to go to insults.

Insults are fine as long as they're not going into like, extreme racism or something. Both sides have been slinging them, no need to cry about it. =)
I'll be honest in that this thread has become too tl;dr for me so I don't actually know whats been said, but it's probably nothing over the line.

Well I wasn't saying "it's not allowed", I was saying it's a douche move in a discussion. Tl;dr for me too, didn't see Supernoob's insults.

[dragonxkai]

This thread is getting derailed somewhat with the personal attacks on players rather than a solution to the issue at hand.

I would suggest the OP make a brand new Thread with a more thought out and simplified idea, rather than something that might contradict the existing game system.
Basically, come up with a stat system that works with the current game, not against it.