Training system: how I see it

[moor-i-arthy]

H&H made a good leap in a concept of upgrading character attributes. Generally, speed and quality of the attributes enhancement depends on a community character belong to: the better it is organized, the more types of higher quality food char has access to.

So why not to make the same leap in skill enhancing?

Major problem is: no matter how interested in game I am, no matter how good I know and understand its mechanics and no matter if I know good ways of grinding, if I've joined HH three weeks ago, I'm never EVER will be match for anyone who plays for two months, while that guy two-months old will never be a match to someone who plays since wipe.

I see a couple of points that can, probably, fix the problem.

First, aging must be implemented. Character may die not only because of enemy sword, talon or hunger. Sometimes human just dies thus taking all that is reckoned with it: losing 25-75% of lp and so on.
Optional: the "tradition" personal belief will be self-implemented with time. Old men are much more attached to theyr history and tradition than young ones. If one want to stay stay with "change", he should check the change-meter from time to time.
Optional: attribute-decaying. But as for me, I don't think it's necessary, its needless complication.

Second, books. As I sayed earlier, HH is good in placing attribute-growth in dependance on the prosperity of the village, city, ranch etc.
Implementing books could make overall skill level of community dependant on it too.
So, book:
- It should be very expensive to make. Say, for example, 50 parchment, couple of skins, couple of metal (maybe even gold or silver) nuggets. It is needed for making books-making difficult for sole players. (Optional: amount of material limits how much skill points may be accumulated in this particular book)
- After book is made, it should be written: anyone can write a book about one of his skills.
- Anyone who gets a book may read it. One reading may take 3-7 minutes (discuss?) and gives reader a couple (maybe 3 or 4) of skill-points in a skill a book is written of. NOT learning points, but skill. Only condition: reader must not have more than, lets say, 75% of the writer's skill level or he will get nothing from book.
- Number of times book can be read is defined by its quality.
- Books can be copied maybe, but I'm not sure. Maybe making more and more books of the same quality should be restricted somehow.
My thoughts on what we will have after. Every community has couple of problems when dealing with noobs. They are mostly useless except for collecting chants, plowing big fields etc. But what if I see that one or two of them are good and interesting players I would like to have in my hird, for example? They will never match other warriors in my village. But with books, which I can give them, they can learn quickly and soon become warriors.
If we need a couple of new farmers because of ours one can't spare any more time for game but we need more high-q wine, for example, asap? Give him a book and ask to find an apprentice.
If I die (and do I mean that aging must be implemented along with books) I will have a way to quickly regain my skills except boring and foolish grinding.
So overall prosperity of the group will depend on education, on how effective it gives knowledge to newbies and reborn men as well as it now depends on the food production.

Needless to say about interesting gaming moments. Books are limited and expensive so it should not be given to everyone. Think of book-trading, skill-point espionage and so on.

UPD: I should point that books+aging will make sure that current skill-level of a village highly depends on education. If there will be no books, skill level will stagnant or even decay eventually.

[brohammed]

That's quite an elegant system, I'll give you that, especially the slow slide from change to tradition with aging.

[Talvara]

I would love to see death and rebirth claim a larger part of the game.

we already have our ancestors... tradition/change... 'perma' death!
I think the concept of age is very interesting since it could introduce a form of 'stat-capping' (which you can perceive as both a good-thing and a bad-thing depending on your point of view.)

though with full tradition you'd still get that 75% of skills/stats you had, so instead of a great equaliser between the old veterans and the new rookies it would just become (an annoying) regular setback.
In my eyes... if it would be important to give new players the chance to catch up with the veterans then that 75% would need to be capped. sort of like "full tradition gives you 75% of what you had UP TO THIS POINT"

Its dangerous grounds though, since I think I don't think everybody will see the fun in "losing everything" on a regular basis.


at the same time though. you dont actually "lose everything" the tools/food/crops/resources that your ancestors left behid are there to be used by the next generation, making the next generation be able to reach new heights within their live times. so yeah... the constructions and the tools you make when your character is in its prime become more valuable and important.

anyway, its intesting food for thought. and I think it could open up the game to alot of new players if there was the promise of being able to catch up with the veterans.

P.S.( yes I am 'a dwarf', losing = fun , also I've been around since world 1 >.< so my viewpoint isn't inspired by me being a rookie and never being able to catch up )

[AnnaC]

I really like the idea of the the Tradition bar sliding back over time; I never touch my belief sliders anymore, ironically I've been at the same configuration (including full "Change") for a long enough time that it could be considered a tradition!

I think as far as aging goes, maybe just making it so the older hearthlings can't grow as quickly? That would allow younger hearthlings to catch up eventually. The tradition thing is a good simple step; another would be to do something with food and hunger; I don't think there should be a FEP reduction or anything, but perhaps make it so hunger can't be reduced so much as you get older? So older characters have to stay active to keep growing.. But on the other side, already trying to crunch attribute growth and food is serious business, I'm not sure if doing anything to that would do more harm than good.

[Talvara]

personally I wouldn't touch the tradition/change choices of the player, however if you know you're going to die sooner rather than later you'd be pretty thickskulled to not put more belief into tradition.
(actually I'd think this already happens ingame right..? when you feel safe you'll have your change belief at 100%, if you feel a war might happen or that you'll get raided, you'll prolly start moving your slider back a little. it comes down to howmuch risk you're willing to take.)

games are all about choice, and the more the player is been given the better (from my point of view.) I just think that the concept of unavoidable death is interesting and should be explored.

Books fit in with the legacy that the old generation leaves behind for the young along with their cattle, tools and other resources. but I think books should be looked at carefully in the way that they dont become "an easy ticket to power" for newbies.

I mean legacy should be a bonus that is earned by living many lives. hmm tricky

[Xenogyst]

I'm never EVER will be match for anyone who plays for two months, while that guy two-months old will never be a match to someone who plays since wipe.

The way most MMOs deal with this is simply by having caps on development.

[Repercussionist]

Major problem is: no matter how interested in game I am, no matter how good I know and understand its mechanics and no matter if I know good ways of grinding, if I've joined HH three weeks ago, I'm never EVER will be match for anyone who plays for two months, while that guy two-months old will never be a match to someone who plays since wipe.

Well, not necessarily. It depends on how much each of you play, relative to each other, and how much of that time spent playing is actually spent earning lp. Admittedly, if they have been playing for too much longer than you, it would be more difficult, but unless they literally play every second the server is up and spend every second doing the tasks that get you lp the fastest, you can always make progress. Here're some equations:

His lp:
k + xyz

Your lp:
vwz

Where:
k(constant) amount of lp he earned before you started playing (time = 0)
x (var) his average playtime per larger unit of time (*ie. hours per week)
y (var) his average lp gain per unit of playtime (*ie. lp per hour)
v (var) your "x" above
w (var) your "y" above
z (var) the aforementioned "larger unit of time" since you have been playing (*ie. weeks)

* you could use any units, such as lp/min/hour

These could be further simplified by combining the rates (xy) and (vw) into a constant which would be increased or decreased directly by the included values, and doing so would make each of these a line. His line will start higher on the y (vertical) axis, but if your line has a steeper slope (that rate constant I just mentioned, which you can increase by playing more, or by playing more lp efficiently), there will be a z value at which you will have gained more lp than him. Of course, as I said, depending on what these values are specifically, it could be a very high z value. So these equations would be something like:

His:
k +lz

Yours:
pz

If you wanted to get an idea of how high you need to get your "p" value so that you would pass him at a particular "z" value, you could always take some averages of players you know, or make an educated guess. (And pardon me if my math comes out a little incomprehensible, I've had a rough day.)


On an unrelated note, I like the concept of books, I just fear that they would be overpowered. If they were highly moderated, I'd love to have them. I'm not so big on the aging thing, though, especially if it means I could randomly die for know reason (I'd get into gaming theory with this, but I feel I've ran my mouth enough), and I really don't see how it ties into your suggestion for books.

[moor-i-arthy]

P.S.( yes I am 'a dwarf', losing = fun , also I've been around since world 1 >.< so my viewpoint isn't inspired by me being a rookie and never being able to catch up )

Whew! Your opinion makes me feel much better =).
I'm here since previous world so I think I'm quite a rookie .___.

The way most MMOs deal with this is simply by having caps on development.

No way. I think most standart-MMO ways will hurt HH much

personally I wouldn't touch the tradition/change choices of the player,

As for me I think an old man still can use the change-select. He will be just needed on occasion to check his beliefs and return slider to "change" as it will slowly travel to "tradition" automatically.
But this is quite optional of course, and not so important.

(And pardon me if my math comes out a little incomprehensible, I've had a rough day.

Yes, I i see a point in your math but I suppose that those l and p have some average value.
While this system when your average lp-level depends on average level of your village may even partyally defeat the "I cant play 24*7"-problem. For example I can play (I really can) some two or three evenings a week. I strongly like this game but I hate an idea that my playtime makes me not even an average player. I'm not even quite useful for my village for a couple of months. My (player's) skill in hunting could make me a good supply of meat, skins and so on, but I don't have any around my village's level of survival skill so my meat, skins and bones are quite bad.
But with books and aging I will be able to make use of my (player's) skills for my village. I won't be able to write any useful books for it (since it will become priviledge of power-players) but I will be able to use the village's level of education and make some useful stuff for my people.
Again: I see in this system a way in wich character level will depend much on the village-level.

[SacreDoom]

aging-death? NO!

I dont wanna waste a fucking 500 hours on a character that suddenly dies all of a sudden without warning and I lose 75% of everything... T_T

[niltrias]

aging-death? NO!

I dont wanna waste a fucking 500 hours on a character that suddenly dies all of a sudden without warning and I lose 75% of everything... T_T

Thats why you make sure to prepare for your descendants.

I am all for aging deaths.