Personal Beliefs Revisited

[LadyV]

Alright I know beliefs have their problems but know this is a rework of them. I think beliefs went wrong with adding bonus's to stats and creating super abilities instead of focusing on what they actually are. Beliefs should be your core thought sin life. They should not be something you sit there and stay logged in to artificially move them forward either.

I believe we should take beliefs as life outlooks and the path you choose opens up new skills for you. Obviously different extremes are exclusive of each other and should be permanent choices. Yes it may be a bit unforgiving if you err but we are talking about core beliefs of your character not a silly back and forth slider where one week you forward thinking and next your a traditionalist.

The beliefs originally put forth are good categories but I think we should give them new benefits such as:

Life: The ability to unlock a medical skill tree and new avenues of healing. Maybe even a apothecary table to make medicines.

Death: The ability to create poisons. This to would open an apothecary table but your skills allow poisons that could slow, weaken, or hurt an animal or opponent.

Night: The ability to learn night hunting and combat skills. Even new night weapons and armor.

Day: The ability to learn day hunting and combat skills. New weapons and armor maybe camoflage.

Barbarism: New combat skills and armor/weaponry

Civilization: New combat skills and armor/ weaponry

Nature: The ability to discover new plants and herbs to use.

Industry: The ability to craft new tools and possibly machines to help with your tasks.

Martial: The ability to improve weapons and armor.

Peaceful: The ability to evade and or build new defences.

Tradition and change should be removed as they represent choices that are more complex than the game can represent because it is possible to be progressive and a traditionalist and a force for change backwards.

Progressions along these fields of thought should be based on game days played. Not interval you progress by just being logged in. Lets say a week of logging in allows a change in thought. Not a real week but logging in at least once for 7 separate days. Time played does not matter as it rewards consistent play and time. This removes the early botting to maintain characters logged in just to adjust sliders. It also slows progression into special fields down to a more realistic pace.

Obviously my skill suggestions are just examples but the point is these views should open new paths for us to explore over time. Kind of like specializations. As you play over time you gain a greater understanding of the world and the paths you choose open and close paths for you to explore and benefit from.

Let's return beliefs to just that our choices and outlook upon life rather than what boost to skills and stats.

[venatorvenator]

That's funny, I was thinking about making a thread on beliefs just this morning but you posted first:D

My idea is similar to yours, but without progression. If any of you has played Morrowind, you know at character creation you pick a sign that grants you bonuses and penalties. This sign represents a certain personality, and it sticks forever, you can't change that.

Applied to Haven my idea is granting only two absolute choices to the player: no longer 6 out of 12, but 2 of 12. For example, I could pick Nature and Life as my focus, and another player could pick Tradition and Martial. A character with Nature+Life would be a great farmer or healer, and a Trad+Martial would be the perfect fighter, not caring about death and loss of LP and dealing extra damage in combat.

As V said, certain beliefs could unlock crafting recipes. Others would grant bonuses, similar to what we have now. Right now these bonuses aren't very relevant and one case easily find a way around them, but if they become rarer or harder to get, trade and player interaction would be more interesting.

For example, what if only characters with Civilization can craft certain jewelry? Or if only characters with Industry can make steel?

In short: I propose beliefs representing a character's personality, and to a point that it affects his gameplay.

I am curious to know what you devs think about it. My opinion is that this would add replayability and realism, and also reduce alt spawning, while not affecting botting at all, which I think is a win-win.

[LadyV]

@Ven

I could live with just choosing a few instead of one from each group. But I'm not sure about retaining bonus's. I much rather a player earn their bonus rather than just click and get one for no reason. That's why I choose skills and items as rewards for choices. You still have to research them and make them that way. A stat boost is just there. You didn't really do anything to get it.

I would love to see skills be unique to your choice and viable options whatever you choose. Let's take Barbarism and civilization. Both are beneficial. Maybe bear capes and talismans are unique to Barbarism. Yet the civilized player can make battering rams and such.

One of the principles I constantly strive for Haven is no choice is bad, just different. And the same extended to items. Each item, weapon, armor, clothing... should have value. It should not be one set of equipment for all as it is now. You should have to choose your equipment to fit your style and be able to succeed with it.

This is where specializations come in. If your skill can produce unique things and still keep you viable then we see new classes or groups emerging depending on what we choose rather than some arbitrary preset. Say I want an archer type character I might choose martial and barbarism. Barbarism might grant leather armor and stone arrows. Martial being a refinement of combat may then upgrade my Barbarism choice by allowing Cutthroat Cuirass instead of leather and bone arrows.

Say i choose a warrior type and again choose martial and this time civilized. Martial might offer bronze armor and swords whereas the addition of civilized opened up steel armors and swords. Beliefs should augment each other and enhance each other.

Using your example of Nature and life. Maybe nature grants me the use of new plants and Herbs and life grants me the three seed bonus per plant like now. It all connects to form a unique outcome of our creation. The biggest change in Haven wouldd be to characters. Everyone would have value. Could you imagine early mining if now one in a group had chosen a belifs that granted bear capes and talismans. It would certainly slow it down. Maybe a group of raiders got all heavy with martial and barbarism to get combat skills and items they still need someone to make rams for them or steel weapons....

We begin to truly create a survival world where every person becomes a valuable part. You kill that farmer, crafter, or whatever and you may loose a commodity. The game changes and forces thought rather than just instinct. It also fosters trade and inter-reliance. Both good things for game play in am MMO.

As much as some want one person to do it all its just unreasonable. Being good at everything just forces single player play and a I don't care about anyone else attitudes. And I thin the point of a group game is to play together.

[Risnar]

I very much like this idea, that's, if my math is right, 66 unique combinations of characters, which, even if you have only half in a village, that will be some nice variety to the game. Think of the either absolute dedication one person would have to have to build up at least a small number of that, or if a group manages to collect 66 unique individuals. The game would be changed quite a fair bit, and organizing that many people into a functioning group, it's a little scary to think about all the micro managing .
Anyways, if something similar is put in place, or if Jorbtar decide that 66 unique sets of characters/skills and increase the beliefs that can be chosen, that would be a pretty big draw to the game I think.

[LadyV]

I very much like this idea, that's, if my math is right, 66 unique combinations of characters, which, even if you have only half in a village, that will be some nice variety to the game. Think of the either absolute dedication one person would have to have to build up at least a small number of that, or if a group manages to collect 66 unique individuals. The game would be changed quite a fair bit, and organizing that many people into a functioning group, it's a little scary to think about all the micro managing .
Anyways, if something similar is put in place, or if Jorbtar decide that 66 unique sets of characters/skills and increase the beliefs that can be chosen, that would be a pretty big draw to the game I think.

Yes it becomes the burden of society. Your choices shape your world more than just doing it all and making sure two main paths are covered. And if a group can not make all the things they need how will they adapt or find them? It begins to form the basis of trade and true groups beyond a faction. You now need or become a tribe or kingdom. Or at the very least you learn to acquire from others.

Don't get me wrong I think there should be a basic set of things all people can do or build and you can play just having those. The true benefit of specialization is the skills and items you can create to make things easier. It's like tossing seeds on the ground and hoping they grow to knowing how to run a multi-field system with irrigation and fertilizing so you can feed more than yourself.

Quite simply how does your will shape the world?

[Amanda44]

I believe we should take beliefs as life outlooks and the path you choose opens up new skills for you. Obviously different extremes are exclusive of each other and should be permanent choices. Yes it may be a bit unforgiving if you err but we are talking about core beliefs of your character not a silly back and forth slider where one week you forward thinking and next your a traditionalist.

I really like this way of thinking about beliefs, like Ven I have also thought about them and I do think they should reflect the path you wish your character to walk with related skills and crafts as you suggest.

I thought I'd read somewhere (but may be wrong) that the devs were doing away with the belief system but if they are just going to adapt them then this is the ideal way to go about it to make game play more interesting and more personal to the player, whilst at the same time promoting group play and organization.

If the happiness bar stays in Haven2 I think that should also follow suit with regard to having some actual bearing on the game, similar to the suggestions Kaios made in Borkas thread, your actions in game resulting in effects that either aid or hinder you - though in this respect they would be temporary rather than permanent.

I am curious to know what you devs think about it.

Yes, me too.

[LadyV]

@Amanda

Yes beliefs are being removed as they sit now. I created this idea because I do like the idea of beliefs just in a different way. Even if beliefs don't stay an evolving skill and crafting system that opens up due to real time dedication is an attractive feature to me. It gives real rewards that you earn vs. just getting something for nothing and most importantly allows content to go much further. If we toss in specialized skill trees you create many new and fun paths to explore. All in all a system that even with many characters it would take you time to refine the right combinations for you.

[popfor]

Or even expanding this to encompass the entire game... a specialized character would have 0 influence in the opposing field. Such fields could apply to any industry, such as hunters getting a mark and survival bonus, while losing farming by a similar amount, and decreasing seed count. Im too tired to actually think this out, but I'm sure theres a way to give bonuses to each industry while crippling the opposite. In such way it encourages cooperation to a certain degree. I know im kind of repeating what has been said, but I'm saying it wouldnt be a terrible thing to base the entire game around.