Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby mulamishne » Fri Jan 17, 2025 3:39 pm

I don't think people necessarily think pvp sucks in this current form, but more so that people don't want to take the risk in doing so. For someone in a large group to lose a fight it's not too bad because its just slapping another set of gear on, but for smaller ones its hella depressing. Death is a misery too if you're unfortunate enough to have that happen to you. I don't think its the type of pvp but the consequence that are scaring people off.

(also lowkey unsure if any new pvp system would be good, still burnt by the last rework attempt)
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby Kaios » Fri Jan 17, 2025 3:55 pm

I disagree, many players have clearly stated they think that running around and drinking water and playing this game of poke/prod back and forth is boring and bad. Not many people are complaining about the inherent risk itself that is involved in an open pvp system, but rather they complain because there are very few ways for a casual player to handle that risk in a reasonable manner. Most players have some idea of what they are getting into when they start this game, however they mistakenly assume that they will actually be capable of fighting back. Were there a system in which defenders could feasibly fend off attackers, the risk would be manageable. Combat doesn't work like that though.
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby Okocim » Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:44 pm

mulamishne wrote:I don't think people necessarily think pvp sucks in this current form, but more so that people don't want to take the risk in doing so. For someone in a large group to lose a fight it's not too bad because its just slapping another set of gear on, but for smaller ones its hella depressing. Death is a misery too if you're unfortunate enough to have that happen to you. I don't think its the type of pvp but the consequence that are scaring people off.

(also lowkey unsure if any new pvp system would be good, still burnt by the last rework attempt)


In my opinion it sucks hard, I hate it not because its risky, for well organised group it's not really risky, you can do it with disposable characters that you can create in bulk.
It's just extremally boring and "skill expression" is in all the wrong places. Clicking critters and drinking water over correctly timing your attacks, using right moves and correctly positioning yourself.
You are right that there is an issue with risk vs reward thing too, since you risk a lot and can almost never gain anything out of it, so why bother? nothing to actually fight over if not just to make others mad.
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby Skrain » Fri Jan 17, 2025 4:50 pm

mulamishne wrote:I don't think people necessarily think pvp sucks in this current form, but more so that people don't want to take the risk in doing so. For someone in a large group to lose a fight it's not too bad because its just slapping another set of gear on, but for smaller ones its hella depressing. Death is a misery too if you're unfortunate enough to have that happen to you. I don't think its the type of pvp but the consequence that are scaring people off.

(also lowkey unsure if any new pvp system would be good, still burnt by the last rework attempt)

No it really is the system that's hated
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby BigCountry » Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:10 pm

The PvP is fine for the first week or 2.

Then its 600+ stat titans spending 10 hours a day hoping thru Thingwalls looking for and killing 100 stat characters in a few seconds- with no real purpose other than to be a dick (Jorb's system allows them to be dicks lol) ¦]

Let's all admit the longer the world goes on the more the PvP is hot trash in this game- because it has no balance, most importantly no crime and punishment system AT ALL. That whole Nidbane system is a JOKE. Everyone who plays this game knows that..

I played Salem for years (it's sort of the same game literally). I really miss it's raiding system and the crime and punishment system. That stuff was GOAT>

- The second you crim flagged and started doing something crim on a claim you started to drain a particular stat type (Black Bile). When stacking up crimes on that same claim, the Black Bile drain/penalties for each crime you commit would stack. The larger the number of crimes you have stacked up, the larger each penalty will be (More crimes on a claim = More bb drained for the next crime). You had to be careful here the longer you stayed on the claim. Even titan characters. You crim flagged on a claim long enough your ass would pass out and lay there for 24 hours lol

-Braziers and Torchposts, defenders could construct and actually shoot at players doing crim on the claim. There was all sorts of cool strategy for this when building bases. If you are in range of them and you commit any crime on any active claim (Brazier/Torchpost doesn't need to be on the claim you commit the crime to start shooting) Each shoot had the chance of being a critical hit for a big ammount of your total Black Bile (this was true no matter what your Black Bile is). This means that the more defenses you had the better, even if they hit for a small amount, you are aiming for spam of critical hits.

-Salem had scent tracking just like HH. But here was the system and the BIG difference- if the crimes were bad ("Summonable" crime like stealing, vandi, murder etc), you could "summon" the criminal to the "stocks". Honestly this was the most balanced PvP element I have ever experienced in a fully open pvp mmorpg (I experienced this on both ends in Salam). Once you had criminal Evidence (scents like we do in HH) you could select it and right-click in onto an open Stock and select "Humiliate" to send the Guilty criminal to the Stocks. Being sent to the Stocks will cause you to drop your entire Inventory! Once in the Stocks a criminal will be subject to Insanity, Whipping, and having Rotten Food (crim would lose stats literally during this process) thrown at them for up to 24 hours. it costed silver (game currency) to put someone in the stocks (you had to have some coin I think it was 500 so you had to be pretty established in the game mechanics). The time in stocks was 24 hours BUT the crim could spend silver on their own (this was the balance for crimes) and get out in 2 hours. So basically if 2 parties hated each other they would both spends lots of coin trying to keep you in jail or get out of jail. :D

Jorb and Loftar have put ZERO thought into this pvp game's crime and punishment system. It's literally just a shiny afterthought of a PvE system. And anyone who recommends anything to fix it, if it "breaks" their PvE system they just move on and ignore it. We are left with assholes and elbows. EVERY damn world that launches its the same trash..
Last edited by BigCountry on Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby vatas » Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:25 pm

Salem Stocks system sounds cool until you realize it makes the PvP meta revolve entirely around "force/trick your opponent into scenting themselves first, then send them to Stocks."

Similar problem happened when Nidbanes were strong, and only solution Jorbtar was able to come up with was to Nerf them into uselessness.
Haven and Hearth Wiki (Maintained by volunteers - test/verify when practical. Forum thread

Basic Claim Safety (And what you’re doing wrong
TL:;DR: Build a Palisade with only Visitor gates.)

Combat Guide (Overview, PVE, PVP) (Includes how to escape/minimize risk of getting killed.)
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby DDDsDD999 » Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:34 pm

Jorb and loftar are aren't capable of making a better combat system. They've tried making new combat systems multiple times, fail to address critical problems because they hate iterating and tweaking, then scrap it.

The current system only barely works after years of criticizing the dumb problems and exploits. And there's still tons of problems the devs fail to address despite constant easy fixes being suggested.
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby BigCountry » Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:36 pm

vatas wrote:Salem Stocks system sounds cool until you realize it makes the PvP meta revolve entirely around "force/trick your opponent into scenting themselves first, then send them to Stocks."

Similar problem happened when Nidbanes were strong, and only solution Jorbtar was able to come up with was to Nerf them into uselessness.


No you could still raid, steal, kill and not get caught. You just had to put more thought into it.

What the system did was remove the dick tard punishless grieving. Which is literally all HH usually becomes at some point in every world cycle.
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby Skrain » Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:48 pm

I played Salem for years, and while it had one or two things better than H&H stocks aren't something that would work.

What would work is preventing criminals of all types from using thingwalls. Want to do the crime and break hearth law? Why should you be allowed to continue using hearth magic period or public teleports? Actually penalize criminals for meaningful sums of time in ways that prevent them from traveling across the world after they botted to discover everything, and you'd slow down that behavior considerably. If Jorb actually worked on the crime systems and ironed out kinks like baiting people into scents and actually tried to counter cheese it would work. Problem is people suggest things, you people say "Well it can be exploited" as if the current system isn't being heavily exploited anyway. Yes there will be exploits, thats why you have to actually work on fixing them, not just shrugging like an asshole and saying meaningless things like "but people would exploit it", that has, and will never be a proper argument against change.

A major failure of the combat system isn't even related to the combat its that distances are meaningless, so anyone from anywhere can just do whatever they feel like pretty much with zero risk.
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Re: Grand Bazaar - CLOSED

Postby BigCountry » Fri Jan 17, 2025 5:57 pm

I agree entirely with the thingwalls. They just needs to be removed entirely and toggle the Charterstones 2-way like it used to be.

We went from:

2-way Charterstone travel
Thingwalls with the removal of Charterstone all together
Readdition of Charterstones but only 1-way travel utilizing a thing wall (to me this was just lazy half-ass ghetto rigged solution)
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