Experience absorption scheme.

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Experience absorption scheme.

Postby Apostata » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:24 pm

I've come in touch with H&H about half and year ago. I dare to say, that as everyone here, who were gaining the first experience from this game - I really enjoyed it.
As I was exploring more and more in-game I found some things and mechanisms very unpleasant. "I'ts an aplha however" 'ive said and start to trying the game after every 3 months. Even after half and year, LP system, which I hate with passion, is still here and intact. Yet, my problem with this LP system will not dissapear with its replacements which is nevertheless coming, as my problem in this case, is a problem with mechanism of gaining experience - leading, especially in case of H&H together with that "quality" value, into massive distrification between players in their ability to be competitive. To make a long story short, it leads to a huge advantage of being grinding more, as others will do the same, thus I am afraid it's substitizing every single thing or concept which this game can brings to us, with competition of grind.

About year ago, I started developing a new experience system, that could be claimed as somewhat inovative on the field of all these Xps,Lps,levels and skills

The problem is not grind itself, but mainly purpose, and in game which is meant to be enjoyable, its accessibility.
And this is how grind ( unpleasant playing for better experience from game afterwards) works:
Image

Here we see, how experience as value in quantity is produced by player for skill value, again in quantity which is in relation with experince quantity. These two values are depending on each other but mainly on its initiator, on interest of player. We know many of simillar cyclic circles as this. Neverending cyclic of human curiosity for which we have all stuff around. Marx's circulation of money, where added value is created and condemned as wrong. But sorry Marx, as I already mentioned here. Never ending money flowing capitalism is not problem itself, same as grind, but mainly purpose of money/grind. And in case of grind - its fun.

As long as player is willing to explore game/aplication through skill value, he will under the circumstaces of how XP,LP is produced will do this process to some degree of his own enjoyment. If this "production" means kill 10 monsters in freshly installed game, hell yes! If this means crafting 10,000 buckets, some will find this way not amusing, and will not do it. Becuase its to far not even from enjoyment, but from reality of learning. I hope you see how such thing is even more crucial in H&H.

Thanks to Plato, here comes an idea. Ideas are taken to be abstract concepts, some say, for better imagination, images. If I saw a red car today, I saw an idea of car in that red car. And I know its a car not because of the red color, but because it have simillar appearance as my idea of cars, based on my experience with cars. If ve never seen a car before, my first car will be aswell my first impact with an idea of car aswell, and such idea will be based only on that one car. With more cars - my idea about cars will be far more accurate about what I would describe as a car. In real world, the world of Ideas accuratly as Plato described is not what I want here to discuss, as its really complex question which have little to do with what I am trying to describe here. But in game or aplication, this is where Ideas could really can exists as Plato "predicted". I am taking this, as all of you know what the Philosophy of Plato is and if not, wikipedia is opened to everybody.

And what does that have simillar with other stuff I described? Let see


Making values of possible skill distrifications not in numbers (as I said such count value is depending on work quantity - experience of quantity), but in limited count of categories , which are dependent on quantity of Ideas which character can develop or find out through absorbing the results of his experience in mind (today I found a stone, stone is stronger than wood, hand..., can hurts, can be thrown= its a weapon, its a tool, its a building material its not a food) could do the trick. But what the heck I am talking about? Lets see it in the picture.
Image

We can see now, that the main thing which is deciding your production technique, ethic, warfare technique and others is your own Mind. Mind is in feedback relation with player and its working on the same basics as your own mind. Its store experiences, tales, techniques and mind aswell have its own quality, which is crucial in way how you can story your experiences and then work with them and create production relations from them. Lets say I have basic understanding what a stone, sticks and rabbits are. I am hungry. I have experience of rabbit meat and so, I want hunt that rabbit. As I know what a stick is, I can easily access my mind ( as it would be a personal wiki, which content is just being explored by experience)and see what experience with stick I have. I have thrown a stick on apples and plums on the trees for collecting them, but I aswell know that its somewhat useless to throw it on anything living, as its escapes quickly and unarmed. I have different experience with stone, which is usable as good weapon against anyone as its heavy. I will hunt with throwing stones. Through hunting I will get access to more content as bones, sinews and other things. Its just about quality of my Mind, which will soon or later finds a new idea through constant interaction between objects, sharpened stick, sharpened bones, sinews as string. With sharpened sticks comes first idea of spears.
So lets say after a while I have average idea of making spears, which is depending on how much I am trying to combine objects or using them in various actions. I know now that even a stone can be sharpened, or I can burn a little a top of sharpened stick to make it better. Chances of what I will discover as new production technique is of course implemented in game via quantity and calculation of Mind sharpness and what other Ideas I already know. But those numbers have to be hidden for always from the eyes of player. As they are spoilers of game, aswell of whole gaming development.

So, What the .... man? It could allow somewhat same grind as before! Except the purpose of course.

Well, lets see how this could work with something which have not eternal Mind. Players are defacto, eternal in every game, excepts the Sims 3 ( Oh god..), thus very interesting concept together with this one up is aging. Together with aging the production technique system sounds somewhat useless. But as we all know, the production techniques and experiences are from the first knowledge of humankind described to others and new ones through Oral tradition. And thats exactly what allowed us to progress. Through possibility to grow up your own child, you can tell him, how frogs are nasty, how stones are heavy, how rabbits are quick and so on, how far his Mind quality allows. Its not 100% copy paste experience, as it never was in real life. But this is that progress which leads from spear to plane. This is how production technique is growing in complexity and this is system, which is not stable, as it needs flexible hand of developer.

I think thats enough for me today. As I know its not really easy thing to understand a non native english speaker in such complex matter, so I will dedicate my future time to make this texts easier to read and to reply any question and of course long time expected critique. Pictures and everything on them is going to be presented more accurately.

The endeavor to understand is the first and only basis of virtue.
User avatar
Apostata
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:44 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Experience absorption scheme.

Postby Apostata » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:36 am

bump for nostalgia

The endeavor to understand is the first and only basis of virtue.
User avatar
Apostata
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:44 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Experience absorption scheme.

Postby dra6o0n » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:34 pm

Works probably well, but not many players in the community see complex and indepth replacement to the system would be a good thing.
dra6o0n
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:11 am

Re: Experience absorption scheme.

Postby sabinati » Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:48 pm

holy fucking tldr
User avatar
sabinati
 
Posts: 15513
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:25 am
Location: View active topics


Return to Critique & Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests