Combat Caps

[Kaios]

Well, my fault then. What were you getting at?

Well the whole point of the farming example was that compared to World 3 where crops were 400, 500 and 600 in villages, now their quality raising is significantly slowed down. That doesn't mean we might not see such high crops again however. That is what I believe combat should be like too.

There should be no limit on how high you can get if you put in the work, but right now it's way too easy, and you barely need to put any LP in to the other skills leaving combat skills the only thing left to raise. That is what I am trying to express should be achieved with the system in my first post.

[kLauE]

combatcap with the current lp-system is bullshit. u raise ur stats very slow later, mean guys with lower combatstats catch up faster than u can raise it. perma-death is one of the best parts from hnh, with a combatcap it doesn't matter that much if u die. and a combatcap based on equipment doesn't change anything, faction with better ressources will still have an advantage.

i could understand a combatcap with the old lp-system, but not really why we need one with the new lp-system.

[burgingham]

i dont like the idea of limiting my stats depending on my gear... what if i prefer to wear leather armor because its stylish, or what if i can't raise the quality of my sword (or whatever) high enough to utilize my MC? not everyone q-grinds.

That is a non-argument. What if you think militia sword looks more stylish than soldiers sword? What if you think fox hat looks more stylish than dragon helmet? For the q-grind, it should be what everything in this game evolves around so that a community based, productive playing style is rewarded and not building yourself a vault at a lucky place near some river, grind up stats all day and then steal your stuff while nobody can do shit about it.

I would even go so far as to say we desperately need that combat cap or the new system almost fixes nothing that the old one has done wrong.

[ItsFunToLose]

Assume there IS a combat cap based on equipment. You are effectively making it impossible to do anything useful with LP after a certain point. The system currently has diminishing returns built into nearly every aspect of the game, sometimes stacked several layers on top of each other.

You're basically saying that there should be an end game where LP becomes useless.

Once you've reached all your softcaps for crafting, all LP now currently goes into combat.

But with a proposed combat cap, there will be characters with millions of unspent LP because there just isn't shit to do with it


The idea that we "desperately need" a combat cap is naive and nothing more than a casual player's whine.




the higher the UAC stat goes, the harder it is to maintain the same ratio. having 10 more UAC means a lot more when its 20 UAC vs 30 UAC(50%) than it does at 100 UAC vs 110. (10%)

If you want to maintain a 15% UAC edge over someone, you have to earn far more than 15% more LP. And as the UAC stat grows, the amount of LP required reaches an impossible to maintain limit, especially given the restriction of 16 slots for curiosities. Eventually, end game LP gains will be constant, but the LP requirements to maintain a specific UAC ratio vs other players, and thus dominance over them, becomes impossible.


Example:
----------------------------------------------
Lets say you start with 100 UAC and I start with 10 UAC. Lets also assume we are both earning 200,000 LP per day, and that we are using the best curiosities possible(i.e. there is no room to grind more LP than the other player).

After one month, You have 360 UAC, and I have 345 UAC.


The numbers assumed for LP per day are simplified for the sake of example, and drastically UNDERESTIMATE the actual amount of LP per day that will be earned per day during the end game, which only serves to further close the gap between players.



TL;DR
If someone has higher UAC than you, they deserve to win.
Capping combat skills is a terrible idea.

[TeckXKnight]

The idea that we "desperately need" a combat cap is naive and nothing more than a casual player's whine.

I'm sorry, it's impossible to take you serious when nearly Every single vet in this game says it's a good idea and necessary and you say that we're all casuals.

[ItsFunToLose]

The idea that we "desperately need" a combat cap is naive and nothing more than a casual player's whine.

I'm sorry, it's impossible to take you serious when nearly Every single vet in this game says it's a good idea and necessary and you say that we're all casuals.

Its hard to take you seriously when you claim to be the voice of every experienced player to ever grace this game with their presence.

With all due respect, (I have seen your posts around the forums, You seem very respected) You either don't understand math, or can't handle losing.


Capping combat skills serves no purpose other than to level the playing field for casuals.(which is an absurd notion given the nature of the current LP system rewarding offline time)


The idea that someone with 500 UAC is unkillable assumes that the time commitment and LP required is

-trivial to achieve for the dedicated player, yet...
-impossible to duplicate yourself


and that all combat takes place in a 1v1 environment. (4v1 and 1v0 being the most common, in my experience)

[TeckXKnight]

Its hard to take you seriously when you claim to be the voice of every experienced player to ever grace this game with their presence.
With all due respect, (I have seen your posts around the forums, You seem very respected) You either don't understand math, or can't handle losing.

I attempt to speak for no one, people have voiced themselves throughout this thread and in others. Many, many experienced players who have seen more wars than we've seen combat have chimed in that something to this effect is a good idea. My qualm lies in neither an inability with math or a dissatisfaction with dying, rather in that you have an unchecked skill that is meant to act as an infinite lp sink. Why is combat exempt from a softcap and what does the game benefit from this?


We've seen what happens in the past when you allow this. This doesn't even need to be a speculation or theoretical, as it is merely history. Everyone remembers q2400+ jewelry. Skills, stats, and establishment became moot to them as, while everything else was limited in some way, they were not and so they could utterly imbalance everything else with their mere existence.

To assume that every battle will always be done in perfect circumstances is, at best, a joke. In your scenario people die and, with roughly a ~90% lp loss from this, that means they're done forever. As it is, while the race is infinite, if you should be knocked down once you're out for good as even at the perfect rate of growth you will never be able to catch up. Or, god forbid, focus on other things besides combat initially and be slightly behind because your city needed a carpenter to help burn charcoal.

Though I know my counter example isn't exactly true, as we've all picked ourselves up after dying and everyone knows that if you have some decent infrastructure and friends, you'll be back up to where you were before in no time at all. That said, in combat we expect people to die so why are we not factoring the eventuality of death into it?

[burgingham]

The idea that we "desperately need" a combat cap is naive and nothing more than a casual player's whine.

You made me snort out my drink from laughing. Damn, you are a special kind of retard.

Your argument is laughable at best. How does this level the playing field at all? It gives a bigger advantage to productive communities that invest time in the quality race by working together rather than being out hunting curios by oneself all day. We don't need high investment characters in a permadeath enviroment like this. Much less characters with an infinite amount of grinding that can be put into them. With caps like this and characters being "finished" at some point we might actually see meaningful and regular conflicts arise (some other changes like mapgen/ressource rng are necessary for this to happen).

There already are and probably should be more alternative goals to get LP for. Right now it is a towns authority and this idea can be expanded on, so you do something for your town by earning LP after you reached all personal goals with your char.

[Jackard]

TL;DR
If someone has higher UAC than you, they deserve to win.

haha fuck you. pvp in a permadeath game shouldnt be trivial

[pyrale]

It gives a bigger advantage to productive communities that invest time in the quality race by working together rather than being out hunting curios by oneself all day.

... Yet again.

I don't mind the idea of a change in the combat system, but would it be possible to add changes that won't screw over hermits/small communities for a change ?